1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MONROE ) 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MONROE COUNTY 4 CAUSE NO. 53C06-2203-PL-000509 5 6 COUNTY RESIDENTS AGAINST ANNEXATION, ) INC., an Indiana not for profit ) 7 corporation, et al., ) ) 8 Remonstrators/Appellants/Petitioners, ) ) 9 -vs- ) ) 10 THE COMMON COUNCIL of the City of ) Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, ) 11 et al., ) ) 12 Respondents. ) 13 14 DEPOSITION OF CHARLES DOBBS 15 16 The deposition upon oral examination of CHARLES DOBBS, a witness produced and sworn before 17 me, Janine A. Ferren, RMR, CRR, CSR-IL No. 84-4852, Notary Public in and for the County of Hamilton, 18 State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the Respondents, at the offices of Bloomington City 19 Hall, 401 North Morton Street, Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on the 1st day of March 2024, 20 scheduled to commence at 1:30 p.m., pursuant to the Indiana Rules of Trial Procedure with written 21 notice as to time and place thereof. 22 23 24 25 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 FOR THE REMONSTRATORS/APPELLANTS/PETITIONERS: 3 William J. Beggs BUNGER & ROBERTSON 4 211 South College Avenue Bloomington, IN 47404 5 812.332.9295 wjbeggs@lawbr.com 6 7 FOR THE RESPONDENTS: 8 Andrew M. McNeil 9 Stephen C. Unger BOSE McKINNEY & EVANS LLP 10 111 Monument Circle Suite 2700 11 Indianapolis, IN 46204 317.684.5000 12 amcneil@boselaw.com sunger@boselaw.com 13 14 ALSO PRESENT: 15 Margaret Clements 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Page 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 Questions by Andrew M. McNeil 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 Deposition Exhibit No.: Page 3 Exhibit 53 - Typewritten notes, "Thoughts 7 for deposition, Friday, March 4 1, 2024" 5 6 7 8 Previously Marked Exhibits: Page 9 Exhibit 28 - Amended and Supplemented 22 Answers of County Residents 10 Against Annexation, Inc. to City of Bloomington's 11 Interrogatories 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 (Time noted: 1:25 p.m.) 2 CHARLES DOBBS, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole 4 truth, and nothing but the truth relating to said 5 matter, was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION, 8 QUESTIONS BY ANDREW M. McNEIL: 9 Q Would you please state your name for the record? 10 A Charles M. Dobbs. 11 Q Mr. Dobbs, we met just before we went on the 12 record. My name is Andrew McNeil. I'm one of 13 the attorneys for the City of Bloomington in the 14 remonstrance annexation case. 15 Have you ever had the opportunity to 16 testify in a deposition before? 17 A (Shakes head.) 18 Q First rule of depositions is everything has to 19 be spoken. 20 A Oh, I'm sorry. No. 21 Q That's all right. Oral responses to my 22 questions are required so Janine, the court 23 reporter, can get an accurate transcript of 24 everything we say on the record. Does that make 25 sense? 6 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Your job today is to answer my questions as 3 truthfully and completely as you can. Do you 4 understand that? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q If you do not understand my question, will you 7 let me know? 8 A Absolutely. 9 Q We're running about 30 minutes or so, but if you 10 need to take a break for any reason, will you 11 let me know that? 12 A Absolutely. My doctor makes me drink a hundred 13 ounces a day of fluid and I wasn't timing it to 14 be here now, and I apologize, but I may have to. 15 Q Well, just let me know and we will go off the 16 record and accommodate you. 17 A Thank you. I just finished a 20-ounce bottle of 18 water, is why I say that, and I've already 19 stopped once. 20 Q Thanks. It's probably a good habit, though. I 21 should drink more water. 22 Did you do anything to prepare for the 23 deposition today? 24 A Yes. I put down my thoughts in writing, which 25 is -- 7 1 Q Is that Exhibit 53? 2 A -- Exhibit 53. 3 (Deposition Exhibit 53 marked for 4 identification.) 5 Q When did you create the document that's now 6 Exhibit 53 and put your thoughts -- 7 A I typed up notes on Monday, and because I'm a 8 freak, I edited it on Tuesday, Wednesday, and 9 Thursday. And if you hadn't called, I might 10 well have been editing it before I came here. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Not major changes because it's not grammatically 13 correct, but ... 14 Q Other than putting your thoughts down on paper, 15 did you do anything else to prepare for the 16 deposition? 17 A No. 18 Q What is your address? 19 A 828 West Baywood Drive, Bloomington 47403. 20 Q How long have you lived there? 21 A We moved in on July 21, 2014, so nine and a half 22 years. 23 Q Does anyone else live there with you? 24 A My wife, Ann. 25 Q Do you own any other property in -- 8 1 A No, sir. 2 Q -- in Annexation Area 1A or 1B? 3 A Don't own any other property, period. 4 Q Your home in Baywood, is it in Area 1B? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Do you have any plans currently to move? 7 A No. I kid my wife regularly about it because of 8 my arthritis, but the answer is no. She's a 9 Bloomington girl. I met her here when I came to 10 graduate school. We dated for ten months, got 11 married, got done, went off to work for nearly 12 40 years. Came back because her folks were 13 still alive and she wanted to see them on life's 14 last journey, which she did. 15 Q So is that when you moved back to Bloomington? 16 A We retired a little early. I was 64, she was 17 61. 18 Q You mentioned, I think, you taught history? 19 A Yeah. This is -- probably because no one cares, 20 but I thought I was being smart. In the spring 21 of 1972 after Nixon had gone to China -- 22 (Stenographer clarification.) 23 A In 1972 after Nixon went to China -- he actually 24 went in February -- but when he went to China. 25 I thought I'd research the history of U.S.-East 9 1 Asia relations from both sides, you'd be set for 2 life with a great job. Took Chinese. Took 3 actually Yiddish, Hebrew, Spanish, French, 4 German, Chinese, but in different eras. 5 And I came here because this had a renowned 6 language department, a huge history department, 7 and one of the best -- actually the biggest 8 liberal arts library outside of Harvard in the 9 country. University of Illinois has a bigger 10 library but they have ag and engineering which 11 Indiana does not. So if you just say arts and 12 sciences, it's the biggest arts and sciences 13 library. Historians live in the library. Not 14 now, it's all online. So anyway, I came here to 15 go to grad school and to teach. 16 So I have five books and, I don't know, 17 20-something articles and 400 encyclopedia 18 entries, about a million words published. 19 Q Where did you teach? 20 A First Metropolitan State University, it's in 21 downtown Denver, Colorado. If you've ever seen 22 a shot of Mile High next to the interstate, the 23 other side of the interstate is the campus. So 24 if you have a class on a Monday, let's say, and 25 the Broncos are playing Monday night, if you 10 1 don't get there early, they will charge you 2 20 bucks for your parking spot rather than a 3 quarter, which was the normal daytime rate. 4 Q Where did you teach after that? 5 A Iowa State University. 6 Q In Ames? 7 A Yeah. And I retired from Iowa State. So I was 8 about 20 years. Not on purpose, just -- 9 Q That's just how it worked out? 10 A How it worked out. 11 Q All right. Are you full-time retired now? 12 A God, yes. I'm sorry, I don't care for what's 13 happening in -- the changes that have happened 14 in higher ed, students, faculty, others. I 15 just -- I was a dinosaur. 16 Q My son works at Butler in Indianapolis. We've 17 heard stories. 18 Did you sign a remonstrance petition? 19 A I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Did I 20 go down to the county courthouse for that week 21 and sign something there? 22 Q That was an option. 23 A That's what I did. 24 Q Okay. 25 A So yes, I did sign a remonstrance petition. 11 1 Q And did you understand that when you signed the 2 remonstrance petition, that you were expressing 3 your opposition to the annexation? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q Are you still opposed to the annexation? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q I'm going to ask you a broad question and then 8 we'll follow up as needed. The question is, and 9 talk slowly, why are you opposed to the 10 annexation? 11 A Is it okay if I sort of paraphrase? 12 Q Absolutely. 13 A Well, there are several reasons. There's one, 14 the mayor never made -- former mayor, excuse me. 15 Q Mayor Hamilton? 16 A Mayor Hamilton never made any effort, still 17 hasn't made any effort, nor has his successor, 18 to draw people in. And this was a habit of his, 19 that's the way he conducted his regime. So he 20 said when he announced it in the paper and 21 sprung it on everyone, it was rightsizing the 22 city. That's just jargon. That doesn't have 23 any meaning. What's rightsizing? 24 He provided no advantages for the city, no 25 advantages for city residents. He provided -- 12 1 whether there were or weren't, he provided none. 2 I'm talking about someone who lives in 3 footnotes. None for the city, none for those 4 being annexed. 5 (Stenographer clarification.) 6 A He said, for example, we would gain fire, 7 police, and water. I have fire, police, and 8 water and pay for them. He blamed us, as others 9 in this administration have blamed us, for 10 taking advantage of the city, when we all take 11 advantage of Indiana University, let's be real. 12 If IU could pick up and move, which I know 13 it can't -- it's a $2 billion physical plant, 14 it's not going anywhere. But if it could, we'd 15 be Bedford or Martinsville. We would not have 16 all the students and excitement they bring, all 17 the entertainment, sports -- even though our 18 football team -- but sports, music, theater, the 19 Eskenazi art museum, all the things I belong to 20 wouldn't be here. And we'd be Bedford or 21 Martinsville, infinitely smaller, infinitely 22 less interesting, and frankly, Republican and 23 not Democratic, because we'd have the same 24 population makeup. So he was just wrong. 25 That was one. Never in all the times 13 1 since, he's never tried to draw us in. In fact, 2 he's criticized us and blamed us for lots of 3 stuff. I don't care for that. Whatever the law 4 says, I believe in ethics, and he didn't have 5 them, to me. But it was typical of him. 6 When the city police bought the armored 7 F-150, it had bulletproof, whatever you call 8 them, metal on the side. At a time when there 9 was issues with the Black community and the 10 city, they didn't announce it ahead of time and 11 scared virtually every African American who 12 lives a couple blocks west of us, where we are 13 right now, into thinking that it was aimed at 14 them, which pretty much was. 15 With the convention center, even though it 16 was the Monroe County Convention Center, he 17 tried to take it over and negotiated separately 18 with hotels, and just didn't care what the 19 County said. Even though it was a county food, 20 beverage, hotel increase tax of 1 percent, I 21 think there's 5 or $6 million now in the bank 22 because they've been collecting it and not 23 spending it. 24 MS. CLEMENTS: I can't enter into this. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. Nevermind. 14 1 Q You're on your own. 2 A High-speed fiber, he did the same thing. He 3 didn't go to Xfinity, not that I love Xfinity, 4 but he didn't go to them to ask them to make a 5 bid. 6 (Stenographer clarification.) 7 A He didn't go to Smithville cable and ask them to 8 make a bid. He went to a private outside 9 company, without them demonstrating just about 10 anything, like "Have you done a previous project 11 that shows you have the capacity and the 12 resources to do this in a timely fashion?" 13 Lower Cascade Road. You came up on the 14 interstate, but if you came up on Old 37, at one 15 point you can get off and ride through the old 16 old 37, and people like it. The mayor wanted to 17 close the road and everything else. There's 18 been no one who wants to do it, but he announces 19 it and it will be done. 20 Seventh Street. Ken Nunn, who advertises 21 incessantly on TV here -- you have to know who 22 he is -- even he wrote a letter to the editor 23 complaining about Seventh Street and what they 24 did with it. There's a bicycle path and it's a 25 bus lane, there's a bus there. And I have 15 1 seen -- I hate to say this because I'll be 74 on 2 Monday, so when I say "old ladies," I do mean 3 older than me, but I realize to most people I'm 4 not young. But old ladies have gone down the 5 bike path in their cars because they couldn't 6 figure out which was the lane to go driving. 7 And Ken Nunn complained about it. Maybe he had 8 a case about, for all I know, of somebody. 9 Then he announced he wanted a 1 percent 10 income tax increase. Never provided an answer 11 what he'd do with the money, still hasn't. I 12 mean, "we'll improve the city and make it a 13 better place to live" is not an answer because 14 everybody in the county -- it becomes a county 15 tax. So Ellettsville did not want it at all. 16 So he just gave a raise to firefighters and 17 police and EMTs, which was a good thing to do. 18 But they didn't want the 1 percent. Unionville, 19 the same way. The county commissioners, who 20 knows? 21 And then last, because I don't want to take 22 too long, he ignored real costs. When he made 23 this announcement, county leaders came out in 24 the newspaper and said it would bust the county 25 budget. Then about the same time perhaps they 16 1 talked to each other, I don't know, the school 2 board, Monroe County Community School 3 Corporation leaders said the same thing would 4 happen to their budget because of the cap on 5 property taxes and where would -- who would get 6 first dibs, as you've -- whoever figures it out. 7 Greg McKim -- 8 (Stenographer clarification.) 9 A Greg McKim, who then was a county councilman, at 10 a meeting at Batchelor Middle School, which was 11 across the block from my house pretty much, so I 12 went. He said there would be a 55 percent 13 increase in our property taxes. And he had the 14 mill rates, so I'm assuming he was accurate and 15 went through everything. 16 And then it's now increased in size but it 17 used to be the Clear Creek-Perry Fire District. 18 Now I think it's the Monroe County Fire 19 District. 20 MS. CLEMENTS: I can't -- 21 THE WITNESS: I know. I'm just trying to 22 remember. 23 A But anyway, the fire commissioner -- the fire 24 chief, excuse me, said that under Indiana law, 25 residents retain responsibility for bonded 17 1 indebtedness even if there's a change in 2 political structure. That is, if we were taken 3 over by the City and received our fire service 4 from the City, I will still have to pay for the 5 fire stations that have outstanding bonds. And 6 I'm assuming all these people were telling the 7 truth. 8 And then private companies have said they'd 9 go out of business including, so happens, my 10 trash company, Ava's Trash Service, which is a 11 woman-owned and woman-run trash company, and so 12 I like supporting them. She said in one of the 13 bills -- because it's online, she said, "We'll 14 have to go out of business because, without the 15 residents who live in the areas threatened with 16 annexation, we can't make a budget." 17 There may be others I don't know about, but 18 there's real costs. Never tried to schmooze us. 19 Oh, and I forgot to say. In the initial 20 announcement about it, we don't get to vote in 21 the next election. Whenever the next election 22 is, if they take us over today and the next 23 election is November, for example, I can't vote 24 in it. So not only is he alienating me of my 25 property, he's alienating me of my right to 18 1 vote. Nobody wants me to bore them with the 2 history of voting rights in the country, but he 3 would alienate me of my rights to vote. 4 For all that, I think that the city -- I've 5 never seen an interest group of city residents 6 going, "Yes, we want to annex these areas." 7 They don't care. And most of them -- 8 Oh, when he announced the multi-unit 9 housing, that's taking a plot where there is a 10 single-family house and putting something extra 11 because we need more housing. He never tried to 12 win over the people in the area. So Elm 13 Heights -- 14 (Stenographer clarification.) 15 A Elm Heights is an area just south of the 16 university. It used to be a pretty much faculty 17 neighborhood, and there's more and more student 18 housing there, which is typical of anyplace 19 that's on a periphery of a college campus. But 20 he just announced he was going to go allow that 21 there, that is, if interest can come in and buy 22 your house and then put up a twoplex or 23 fourplex, whatever -- I don't think it can be 24 bigger than a fourplex, that was fine. 25 And I exercise with a fellow who is one of 19 1 the original families in Bloomington. In fact, 2 the street that's just west of us, that's his 3 family. And the other half of his family are 4 the Kinsers. So they've been in this town. He 5 lives in the house his grandfather built. 6 He's incensed about it, and he's a city 7 resident. He doesn't mind other stuff. But you 8 never asked, you never put it to a vote, you 9 never held any kind of meeting. You, the mayor, 10 never showed up anyplace where people could ask 11 you, "Why in the hell are you doing this? And 12 what would it take to get you to agree to stop?" 13 He would just make these pronouncements. 14 The worst of them, I shouldn't say it for 15 the record but I'm going to, I believe the real 16 reason he wanted this was the extra 16,000 17 residents from all the areas that are 18 threatened, not just 1B, would allow him to play 19 in a bigger group at national meetings of mayors 20 because we'd hit 100,000 people in the city. 21 And I believe that to my toes. Or if I was 22 writing a history of this as a historian, I 23 would ascribe that to be the reason, based on 24 what work I have. And that's my page. 25 Q Mr. Dobbs, did you cover all the points on your 20 1 notes -- 2 A I think so. 3 Q -- in Exhibit 53? 4 I want to kind of circle back on some of 5 that. 6 A Sure. 7 Q When you referenced the county budget, county 8 leaders said it would bust the county budget. 9 Is this information that you heard county 10 leaders say or is this something you read in the 11 paper? 12 A I read in the Herald-Times, sorry. The same 13 thing with the school board, if you're going to 14 ask that next. 15 Q Have you ever studied or looked at the county 16 budget and its sources of revenue? 17 A Very briefly. This is several -- I was amazed 18 how much less things cost here than in Iowa. 19 The real Midwest, the upper Midwest has a bigger 20 social net, and so I was paying -- my wife and I 21 were paying two and a half times the property 22 tax that we're paying here. Our homeowners 23 insurance was half the price. It's not that 24 I -- it's not that we can't afford it, and I 25 don't think an individual should be the key. 21 1 It's -- but no, I've never sat there and gone 2 page by page. 3 Q Did you take away an understanding or a 4 perspective from the county leaders who 5 contributed to or were quoted in the article -- 6 let me start over. That's a bad start. 7 Did you have any understanding from what 8 you read about the county or the school budget 9 of what amount of money would be removed from 10 the budget because of the annexation? 11 A I'm sorry, I don't remember, but the article did 12 say. 13 (Stenographer clarification.) 14 A The article did say how much roughly, but I 15 don't remember what it said. 16 Q You mentioned that you don't see it, for you at 17 least, you don't see it as an individual issue. 18 Are you speaking more from a policy perspective? 19 A I think it was done inappropriately. I don't 20 see how it benefits everyone -- anyone. I think 21 it's just carrying along on its own inertia. 22 It's kind of like the Vietnam War. What else 23 can we do? Being the city, I mean, or being 24 LBJ. And I can show you that in a book. I know 25 the author. 22 1 Q I have questions for you off the record, but 2 I'll save them. 3 A Okay. 4 Q I was a history major in college. 5 A Me too. 6 (Deposition Exhibit 28 previously marked 7 for identification.) 8 Q So just for the sake of completeness, you have a 9 document in front of you that has Exhibit 28 on 10 it. 11 A This one? 12 Q Yes, the title of which is "Amended and 13 Supplemented Answers of County Residents Against 14 Annexation to City of Bloomington's 15 Interrogatories." 16 You are referenced in here, if you go to 17 page 12, question 13. So we've got to get the 18 question first. So question 13 asks the 19 responding party to "Identify and list the facts 20 and documents supporting the contention that the 21 annexation is not in the best interest of the 22 owners of land in the annexation territory" and 23 identify witnesses. 24 So then if you turn to page 13, there's a 25 supplemental answer there. Do you see your 23 1 name, it's the -- 2 A Oh, yeah. 3 Q So you've been identified as someone who, if 4 called to testify, "would be asked to testify 5 about the impact of annexation upon them and 6 their businesses." 7 Is there anything in addition to or beyond 8 what you've already testified to or what you 9 provided in your notes in Exhibit 53 that you 10 would add if you were testifying at trial, 11 beyond what you've said here today? 12 A I don't think so. I mean, the only thing I'd 13 say is, it's just personalities. I don't think 14 that's appropriate. 15 Q Have you ever reviewed the fiscal plan, the 16 annexation fiscal plan? 17 A I reviewed the plan. When you say "fiscal 18 plan," because that's where it talked about us 19 not being -- the annexed people not being able 20 to vote for like three years or four years. 21 Q The fiscal plan I'm referring to specifically is 22 a 500-or-so-page compile -- 23 A No. 24 Q Now, on the right-to-vote issue, are you 25 referring to -- 24 1 A City elections. 2 Q City elections within one year of the annexation 3 being filed? 4 A No, it's the next election. So if, for 5 example -- it wouldn't happen this way, but if, 6 for example, we were annexed the day of an 7 election, which I know -- but for argument's 8 sake, if the next following election is two 9 years down the road, I can't vote in that one. 10 The first one I can vote would be four years 11 down the road. 12 Q Where did you gain that understanding? 13 A It was in the newspaper. I don't know if they 14 keep a clippings library anymore; a good paper 15 would. I mean, but all kidding aside, the 16 Herald-Times isn't what it was. No paper is. 17 Q Right. 18 A I once cited an article in the New York Times on 19 page 371, Sunday paper, 371. 20 MS. CLEMENTS: Wow. 21 Q You mentioned, was it Mr. Greg McKim talking 22 about the 55 percent increase in property taxes, 23 and you mentioned he had the mill rate so you 24 assumed he was telling the truth? 25 A Yes, yes, and yes. 25 1 Q This was at the Batchelor -- 2 A Batchelor Middle School. 3 Q Batchelor Middle School. 4 A It was like a week or two after the mayor's 5 announcement. And the fire department was there 6 in big numbers and they were handing out signs 7 you can put in your yard, but I live near the 8 end of a dead-end street so ... 9 Q What's your best recollection of when that was, 10 what month and year? 11 A It was within two weeks of the mayor making his 12 announcement, when he first broke it. 13 Q So the very first time back in 2017? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Have you done any investigation into how the 16 annexation would directly impact your property 17 tax liability? 18 A I took McKim's argument because -- for the 19 different mill rates to affect me the same as 20 anyone else. I mean, we have -- I don't know 21 about Indiana law, but in Iowa, if you own more 22 than, I think it's five acres but it might be 23 ten, it's agricultural land and the mill rate 24 drops to about zero because you don't muck with 25 ag interests in Iowa. Three million people, 26 1 12 million pigs; I'll just say there's things 2 you don't do. We have, I don't know, 7,000 3 square feet or something. I mean, it's not a 4 big plot. So I didn't pay attention to any of 5 those. I just assumed that they'd treat me the 6 same. 7 Q The fire district, you said the Monroe County 8 fire commissioner said that residents would 9 retain responsibility for bonded indebtedness on 10 fire stations and equipment. 11 A Yeah, so there's a fire -- 12 Q First question. 13 A Oh. 14 Q Who is the Monroe County fire commissioner? 15 A The fire chief. Sorry, I shouldn't have put 16 "commissioner." 17 Q Dillard? 18 A I'm terrible with names. Is he chubby? 19 Q We'll just say the head of the Monroe Fire 20 Protection District. 21 A I mean, I'm not light, but he's chubby. 22 Q Okay. So you were going to explain that 23 comment? 24 A So he explained that there was several fire -- 25 at the time there's more fire stations. Now 27 1 they've combined with other areas that I haven't 2 paid enough attention to. But there's one on 3 Rhorer Road right when you come out of the 4 Kroger parking lot and go not quite but almost 5 across the street, there's one there. There's 6 one by Lake Monroe on the west side. And he 7 talking about these new buildings, and we 8 never -- not that this would be a huge debt, but 9 we would never get out from under it, and he 10 said that was state law. 11 Q You're in Perry Township; is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And Perry Township is part of the Fire 14 Protection District? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Did you understand that if the annexation were 17 to go through, that the fire district would 18 continue to be the primary fire provider for 19 your -- 20 A Honestly, after the mayor made the announcement, 21 not the week after but within a couple of weeks, 22 there was an open house in this building, the 23 only other time I've been here, down in the main 24 floor. And the unit heads were there and talked 25 about how they would deal with us. I mean, they 28 1 were aiming it at the annexees. And the fire 2 chief was there talking about him taking over, 3 because our fire people are trained. 4 I said, "Ours have to be, too, or else I 5 wouldn't be getting the fire insurance rate I'm 6 getting from USAA, that I wasn't getting in Iowa 7 with a city fire department." And that sort of 8 stopped him and I didn't know what else to ask. 9 Q Was this also in 2017? 10 A Yeah. That was also when the -- by the way, I 11 like that because I want this on the record, the 12 then-corporation counsel for the City lied. She 13 said this is typical of states across the 14 country, that is, you can annex land without 15 needing approval or permission from the 16 annexees. Four states, not 50, and she lied. 17 Q Is that Philippa Guthrie? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Are you aware of any changes to the law with 20 respect to fire protection districts and 21 annexation territories since 2017? 22 A If it occurred, it wasn't covered in the 23 Herald-Times. But then again, a lot's not 24 covered. 25 Q Is there anything else, if you were testifying 29 1 at a trial to express your opposition to the 2 annexation, that you would provide that you 3 haven't provided? 4 A Other than I might remember one more example of 5 him running roughshod over people, but I thought 6 that was enough. 7 Q But nothing of a different kind? 8 A No. I wouldn't do -- it would just be backing 9 up. 10 MR. McNEIL: Mr. Dobbs, I have no further 11 questions. 12 MR. BEGGS: No questions. Thank you very 13 much. 14 (Time noted: 1:56 p.m.) 15 AND FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 16 17 18 ____________________ 19 CHARLES DOBBS 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF HAMILTON ) 3 I, Janine A. Ferren, a Notary Public in and 4 for the County of Hamilton, State of Indiana at 5 large, do hereby certify that CHARLES DOBBS, the 6 deponent herein, was by me first duly sworn to tell 7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 8 truth in the aforementioned matter; 9 That the foregoing deposition was taken on 10 behalf of the Respondents, at the offices of 11 Bloomington City Hall, 401 North Morton Street, 12 Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on the 1st day 13 of March 2024, commencing at the hour of 1:25 p.m., 14 pursuant to the Indiana Rules of Trial Procedure; 15 That said deposition was taken down 16 stenographically and transcribed under my 17 direction, and that the typewritten transcript is a 18 true record of the testimony given by the said 19 deponent; and thereafter presented to said deponent 20 for his signature; 21 That the parties were represented by their 22 counsel as aforementioned. 23 I do further certify that I am a disinterested 24 person in this cause of action; that I am not a 25 relative or attorney of any party, or otherwise 31 1 interested in the event of this action, and am not 2 in the employ of the attorneys for any party. 3 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 4 hand and affixed my notarial seal on this 15th 5 day of March 2024. 6 7 8 <%21167,Signature%> ________________ 9 Janine A. Ferren 10 11 Seal, Notary Public My Commission Expires: 12 State of Indiana April 22, 2024 13 Janine A. Ferren County of Residence: Commission No. NP0681591 Hamilton 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Veritext Legal Solutions 1100 Superior Ave Suite 1820 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 Phone: 216-523-1313 March 15, 2024 To: William J. Beggs, Esq. Case Name: County Residents Against Annexation, Inc., Et Al. v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, Et Al. Veritext Reference Number: 6465811 Witness: Charles Dobbs Deposition Date: 3/1/2024 Dear Sir/Madam: The deposition transcript taken in the above-referenced matter, with the reading and signing having not been expressly waived, has been completed and is available for review and signature. Please call our office to make arrangements for a convenient location to accomplish this or if you prefer a certified transcript can be purchased. If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived. Sincerely, Production Department NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465811 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation, Inc., Et Al. v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, Et Al. DATE OF DEPOSITION: 3/1/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Charles Dobbs 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have made no changes to the testimony as transcribed by the court reporter. 8 _______________ ________________________ 9 Date Charles Dobbs 10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a Notary Public in and for the State and County, 11 the referenced witness did personally appear and acknowledge that: 12 They have read the transcript; 13 They signed the foregoing Sworn Statement; and 14 Their execution of this Statement is of their free act and deed. 15 I have affixed my name and official seal 16 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 17 ___________________________________ 18 Notary Public 19 ___________________________________ Commission Expiration Date 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465811 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation, Inc., Et Al. v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, Et Al. DATE OF DEPOSITION: 3/1/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Charles Dobbs 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have listed my changes on the attached Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as 8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s). 9 I request that these changes be entered as part of the record of my testimony. 10 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well 11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize that both be appended to the transcript of my 12 testimony and be incorporated therein. 13 _______________ ________________________ Date Charles Dobbs 14 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a 15 Notary Public in and for the State and County, the referenced witness did personally appear 16 and acknowledge that: 17 They have read the transcript; They have listed all of their corrections 18 in the appended Errata Sheet; They signed the foregoing Sworn 19 Statement; and Their execution of this Statement is of 20 their free act and deed. 21 I have affixed my name and official seal 22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date 1 ERRATA SHEET VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS MIDWEST 2 ASSIGNMENT NO: 3/1/2024 3 PAGE/LINE(S) / CHANGE /REASON 4 ___________________________________________________ 5 ___________________________________________________ 6 ___________________________________________________ 7 ___________________________________________________ 8 ___________________________________________________ 9 ___________________________________________________ 10 ___________________________________________________ 11 ___________________________________________________ 12 ___________________________________________________ 13 ___________________________________________________ 14 ___________________________________________________ 15 ___________________________________________________ 16 ___________________________________________________ 17 ___________________________________________________ 18 ___________________________________________________ 19 _______________ ________________________ 20 Date Charles Dobbs 21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS ________ 22 DAY OF ________________________, 20______ . 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date