1 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MONROE ) 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MONROE COUNTY 4 CAUSE NO. 53C06-2203-PL-000509 5 6 COUNTY RESIDENTS AGAINST ANNEXATION, ) INC., an Indiana not for profit ) 7 corporation, et al. ) ) 8 ) ) 9 Remonstrators/Appellants/Petitioners,) ) 10 -vs- ) ) 11 THE COMMON COUNCIL of the City of ) Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, ) 12 et al. ) ) 13 Respondents. ) 14 15 DEPOSITION OF HARRY FERRIS 16 17 The deposition upon oral examination of HARRY FERRIS, a witness produced and sworn before me, 18 Colleen Brady, Notary Public in and for the County of Monroe, State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the 19 Respondents, at the offices of Bloomington City Hall, 401 North Morton Street, Room 225, 20 Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on the 27th day of February 2024, at 1:41 p.m., pursuant 21 to the Indiana Rules of Trial Procedure with written notice as to time and place thereof. 22 23 24 25 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 FOR THE PETITIONERS: 3 William J. Beggs BUNGER & ROBERTSON 4 211 South College Avenue Bloomington, IN 47404 5 812.332.9295 wjbeggs@lawbr.com 6 7 FOR THE RESPONDENTS: 8 Andrew M. McNeil 9 BOSE MCKINNEY & EVANS LLP 111 Monument Circle 10 Suite 2700 Indianapolis, IN 46204 11 317.684.5000 amcneil@boselaw.com 12 13 14 15 ALSO PRESENT: 16 Margaret Clements 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Page 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Questions by Andrew M. McNeil 4 5 6 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 7 Page Previously Marked Exhibits: 8 Exhibit 28 - Amended and Supplemented . . . . . . .34 9 Answers of County Residents Against Annexation Inc. to City 10 of Bloomington's Interrogatories 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 (Time noted: 1:41 p.m.) 2 HARRY FERRIS, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole 4 truth, and nothing but the truth relating to said 5 matter, was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION, 8 QUESTIONS BY ANDREW M. MCNEIL: 9 Q Could you state your name for the record please? 10 A Harry -- full legal name; right? Harry E. 11 Ferris Jr. I just go by Harry Ferris. Father 12 is passed away. Some attorney told me I could 13 drop the Jr. 14 Q Well, Harry, my name Andrew McNeil. I'm one of 15 the attorneys for is the City of Bloomington in 16 this annexation remonstrance case. Have you 17 ever been through a deposition before? 18 A Yes. 19 Q When most recently? 20 A Probably been 25, 30 years. I worked for big 21 trucking companies. We were always suffering 22 litigation. 23 Q Well, the process hasn't changed. Maybe the 24 technology has. So you understand, your role 25 here is to answer my questions as completely and 5 1 truthfully as you can; right? 2 A Yes. 3 Q If you don't understand my question, will you 4 let me know? 5 A I'll ask for clarification. 6 Q If you need me to rephrase it, just speak up, 7 let me know. 8 A Right. 9 Q And if you answer it, I will assume you 10 understood it. Is that fair? 11 A Fair. 12 Q We're trying to get you out in about 45 minutes. 13 A All right. 14 Q But even so, if you need to take a break for any 15 reason, will you let me know that? 16 A Sure. Certainly. 17 Q What is your address? 18 A 4132 West Broadway Avenue, Bloomington. 47404. 19 Q Is that in Annexation Area 1A? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Does anyone else live at that West Broadway 22 address with you? 23 A No. When this all started -- my wife is 24 deceased. I lost my wife two years ago. So, 25 yes, she was living there with me. 6 1 Q Not currently -- 2 A Currently, I'm solo. 3 Q I'm sorry for your loss. 4 A Thank you. 5 Q Did you or your wife at the time sign a 6 remonstrance petition opposing the annexation? 7 A I believe only one signature per property. So 8 my signature. 9 Q You signed it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How long have you owned the 4132 West Broadway 12 property? 13 A Since October of 2013. Maybe the end of 14 September. Somewhere in there. So 10 plus 15 years. 16 Q Do you own any other property in either Area 1A 17 or 1B? 18 A No, I do not. 19 Q Do you have any plans to move? 20 A No, I do not, currently. I just -- 21 Q Sure. 22 A Not trying to be difficult. 23 Q No, I appreciate that. Do you work currently? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Where did you work? 7 1 A Bloomington Transit. 2 Q And how long have you worked there? 3 A Ten years. 4 Q To get from Bloomington Transit from your home, 5 what route do you take? 6 A Basically Broadway to Western Avenue to 3rd 7 Street to Patterson, to Grimes. 8 Q What do you do for Bloomington Transit? 9 A Bus operator. Part time. 10 Q Do you have any other employment? 11 A None. 12 Q If you work part time, do you have a regular set 13 schedule from week to week? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What is your schedule? 16 A Basically, 7:05 a.m. to 12:30 Monday, Tuesday, 17 Thursday, Friday. I have Wednesday off. Again, 18 part time. Approximately, 22 hours and a 19 fraction. I just round it down to 22 hours. 20 Q Other than working at Bloomington Transit, do 21 you do anything else within the city limits? 22 Like, do you get -- do you go shopping, get 23 groceries, eat at restaurants within city 24 limits? 25 A On occasion. Do you need specifics? 8 1 Q If you could ballpark? 2 A Kroger. I buy my gas at Kroger. Shop at 3 Kroger. They call it Highland Village, which is 4 on the west side, but it's in the city. I use 5 the Planet Fitness on West 3rd Street in 6 Whitehall Plaza. From time to time, I shop at 7 Menander. I believe that's in the city. Shop 8 at Walmart, but that's county. 9 Q Do you ever go to the city parks for any reason? 10 A No, but when I -- I lived in the city for 17 11 years. So I did go to parks and park functions 12 and I had younger children. 13 Q When you lived in the city, where did you live? 14 A Paddington Court, which is down off of Allendale 15 in Sherwood Oaks. There's a Sherwood Oaks and a 16 Sherwood Oaks II. 17 Q You were in Sherwood Oaks? 18 A Sherwood Oaks. My back fence line was the -- 19 for a while, was the boundary between the city 20 and the county. I woke up one morning, read in 21 the paper that they had been annexed. That was 22 during mayor Fernandez's term. So I asked my 23 neighbor and he wasn't aware that he got annexed 24 by the city. 25 Q Do you attend any other events within the city 9 1 or any events at Indiana University sporting 2 events or other performances? 3 A No, I use state property, but I have attended 4 one football game in the last -- probably last 5 20 years. No basketball games. And I have 6 attended the opera at the Musical Arts Center 7 once last fall. 8 Q So if you were thinking the about your home on 9 West Broadway, if you were to call the fire 10 department -- you had a kitchen fire or 11 something -- what's your understanding of which 12 service provider would be the primary responder? 13 A Primary responder would be Ellettsville 'cause 14 fire department is under contract to our 15 township, and it's approximately a long mile, 16 less than 2 miles away just off of Curry. 17 And I'm glad you brought that up because 18 when the city had an orientation for annexation 19 downstairs, I attended that. And one of my 20 questions was going to be to the fire 21 department. They had a booth, the police 22 department had a booth, and I wanted to ask what 23 their response time would be. Now they 24 published in the paper that it would be seven 25 minutes, but if you've ever sat at West 3rd at 10 1 peek traffic time, they can't get from down 2 there -- now their closest -- the city's closest 3 station is on Franklin, over there by McDonald's 4 and Interstate 96. I sit and watch the fire 5 trucks can't get through the traffic. They're 6 just sitting on their horns. So, again, and 7 I -- my neighbors have called the fire 8 department. And Ellettsville responds within 9 three to five minutes. City says their response 10 time is would be seven. I place it closer -- 11 and trying to be fair -- 11 minutes for them to 12 respond across the interstate because of 13 traffic. 14 Q Do you know what rating the Bloomington fire 15 department has? 16 A Last I -- I'm glad you brought that up 'cause 17 again -- well, the night they had orientation, I 18 stopped at the booth for fire department and the 19 police, and they had parks and rec there and a 20 few other departments. They were talking about 21 to people. So I went around the corner 22 downstairs and talked to the people about my 23 taxes. And they were estimating what the 24 increase on my taxes would be at that time. 25 Approximately 6:15, I came back and the police 11 1 and fire department personnel had all abandoned 2 their booth. They were supposed to be there 3 till 8:00. 4 So that was my intend questions to them is 5 fire department response time and police 6 department response time. Now I know for a fact 7 that the police do not have their -- to my best 8 observations, are not -- are only responding to 9 911 calls. Working for the bus company, I've 10 sat down at the Transit Center at 3rd and 11 Walnut, which is just a block west of the police 12 station at Lincoln and 3rd Street, and they 13 all -- the police officers, due to their 14 decreased numbers, cannot -- they sit at the 15 police station and wait for a call and then four 16 or five vehicles come running out either 3rd and 17 Walnut or down the ally behind the bus station 18 to respond to a call. So they are staged at the 19 police station. 20 Q You mean in contrast, they are not out on 21 patrol? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Please continue. 24 A The police chief, I have a good friend that just 25 went through a police orientation meeting, said 12 1 that they're not responding to any -- or pulling 2 over people for traffic violations, that they're 3 undermanned and understaffed; which my 4 understanding, they're budgeted for 105 officers 5 and they only have 85. So I have to question 6 why they can't hire and retain people. 7 The current police chief, who was 8 renominated or appointed by the new current 9 mayor, repointed him. But I'm going back -- I'm 10 guesstimating -- five, six years, city council 11 appropriated $225,000 for the city to fix the 12 roof on the current police station. Instead of 13 doing that, the police chief went and bought an 14 armored car that created all kinds of public 15 uproar. So I feel the city is mismanaged. And 16 the fire department, everything I hear and read 17 in the papers and listen to on the media, is 18 understaffed. So both police and fire 19 department are understaffed. 20 From my experience and living in the city 21 for 17 years, my taxes went up every two years 22 and my services went down every two years. They 23 went from free garbage collection to paid 24 garbage collection. They went from putting 25 anything at the curb -- that you put at the curb 13 1 would be picked up to limitations that anything 2 other than two cans, which you had to buy 3 stickers -- pay stickers to have pay for. 4 We had to pay for -- so we went from free 5 garbage service to pay garbage service to 6 limitations on how much we could put to the 7 curb, and any special pickups, we had to pay 8 extra for. When I moved into the property in 9 1996, we had free vacuum of leaves on a weekly 10 basis. 11 Q Who provided that service? 12 A The city. And they went from weekly to monthly 13 to once a year to total elimination of leaf 14 collection. 15 So currently I drive a bus for City of 16 Bloomington. The city streets aren't 17 maintained. All the city manhole covers are 18 uneven. And there's potholes all over the city. 19 Now sometimes we can go through our dispatcher 20 and point out a pothole that's getting out of 21 hand or getting too deep. 22 Q You mean the Bloomington Transport dispatcher? 23 A Dispatcher. And request and sometimes the city 24 responds. 25 Q Let me back up. 14 1 A Okay. 2 Q My question was do you know what the current 3 fire department rating is? 4 A Oh, I'm sorry. 5 Q That's all right. We would have covered -- 6 A I digress. 7 Q We would have covered all this stuff anyway 8 but -- 9 A My understanding, the last I heard and I 10 wanted -- I digress because I wanted to verify 11 it. Chicago has the highest rating because, 12 when the city burnt to the ground, they improved 13 their fire department. And my understanding, 14 the city's rating is equivalent to Chicago's. 15 Now correct me if I'm wrong or you have other 16 information to update me; I haven't seen 17 anything to the contrary. 18 Q That's your understanding? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. You mentioned in your answer that the 21 police chief -- you talked about a friend of 22 yours who was at a recent police orientation -- 23 A Right. 24 Q -- with the police chief. 25 A Spoke very highly of the police chief, I might 15 1 add. 2 Q Thank you. When you say police orientation, 3 what do you mean? 4 A Well, my friend thought it was just a general 5 overview. But the city -- the police department 6 does this every fall. It's basically a 7 recruiting session where they offer the public 8 to come in. People come in and sit down. And 9 one week, they'll have, like, the SWAT team get 10 up and give a presentation, patrol officer 11 another time. They have a judge from the court 12 to come in. It's a 12-week seminar or -- I call 13 it an orientation. But -- 14 Q So it was in that context? 15 A Yes. Basically recruiting. 'Cause I've had -- 16 I've known other young -- my friend is 71 years 17 old and he's not looking for a job. 18 Q What's his name? 19 A Chris Wilson. So and he -- 20 Q So did Mr. Wilson convey that the police chief 21 said that they were understaffed and they were 22 budgeted for 105 but had about 85 actual? 23 A Right. And they weren't responding to -- or 24 taking care of any traffic violations. And I 25 can testify to that because on the bus, I see -- 16 1 Q From your observations? 2 A I'm at intersection and there's a policeman 3 sitting there and somebody runs an all-way stop 4 in front of him, and they just don't do 5 anything. And, to be fair, they've been 6 maligned, they're undermanned, they're 7 understaffed. So I don't know -- I can kind of 8 understand the hands-off approach, but people 9 are getting out of hand; so ... 10 Q Let me ask you this about the police. There was 11 a study done that City of Bloomington paid for a 12 few years ago to look at the staffing levels of 13 the police department. Are you familiar with 14 that? 15 A I believe so to the extent that there was an 16 article in the paper that was kind of giving an 17 overview of it. So somewhat familiar with what 18 you're talking about. 19 Q Your information about that study would be what 20 you read in the newspaper -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- as opposed to reading the study yourself? 23 A Correct. 24 Q In the article you read, do you remember it 25 reporting on the ultimate conclusions or 17 1 recommendations from that study? 2 A Lot of officers were hiring in and leaving. The 3 only conclusion that I recall was that they are 4 underpaid. Since then, I know city council 5 pushed through big pay raises for them and 6 possibly -- and I might not have this correct -- 7 bonuses, hiring bonuses and retention bonuses. 8 Some kind of package to that -- 9 Q To try to help with recruiting? 10 A Right. And retention. 11 Q And retention. I don't remember if you said 12 this or not. Might have been another witness. 13 There have been a few today. Did you say you've 14 had experience with calling -- I know your 15 neighbor had experience with Ellettsville fire 16 department. 17 Have you had experience with calling the 18 Monroe County Sheriff's Department for any 19 reason? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you call them to your residence? Is there a 22 particular situation? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What's the situation? 25 A I walk my dogs on street. We don't have 18 1 sidewalks. And I had a fella -- I was walking, 2 and there was a four-way stop about 10 houses 3 down. He ran the stop sign and almost -- kind 4 of gave me a brush back. I'm not going to say 5 he tried to hit me. So I yelled at him. I have 6 to add this. He had a small child in his car. 7 Got out of his car and started swearing, cursing 8 at me. Threatened to -- called me an old man. 9 Threatened into beat me up, physically. I just 10 stood there. I didn't respond in kind other 11 than to say, "No, you ran the stop sign and I 12 call you out on it." Got his license number. 13 Called the deputy's sheriff's office and said 14 "This guy ran a stop sign. Got out of his 15 car -- I called him on it. He threatened me 16 with bodily harm and here's his license plate 17 number." 18 Q And did a sheriff's deputy ever come to your 19 house to take a further statement from you? 20 A I didn't call 911. I called the sheriff's 21 office direct. Talked to dispatcher deputy on 22 duty. She told me that she had written 23 everything down, and they didn't have a 24 patrolman in the area right now but they would 25 follow up on it. 19 1 Q Did anyone follow up on it? 2 A Not with me. 3 Q So you don't know if they ever followed up with 4 a driver? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Are you familiar with the organization County 7 Residents Against Annexation? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What is your familiarity or understanding with 10 that organization? 11 A It's a nonprofit organization. It's advocating 12 against annexation. 13 Q Have you been involved with that organization 14 either on a board of advisors or board of 15 directors or holding an office -- 16 A Position, no. 17 Q Have you attended any meetings? 18 A I have to ask, if you don't mind, just for -- 19 they had -- 20 Q Your best recollection. 21 A I went to the meeting at the fairgrounds. So I 22 don't know if -- I think Margaret was there but 23 I don't know if -- 24 Q If that was -- 25 A -- they were holding -- hosting that or not as 20 1 an organization. And I went to a meeting at 2 Van Buren Fire Department where, again, I don't 3 know who was host -- my understanding was it was 4 Van Buren Township was hosting that meeting, but 5 I'm not clear on that, expressing their concerns 6 about funding if they were annexed and having to 7 do away with their fire department or trimming 8 manpower and equipment. And I also attended 9 Washington Township. Is that on North Old 37? 10 Q You attended a meeting out there? 11 A As well. So three. To my recollection, three 12 meetings, public meetings, concerned with 13 annexation. And whether the organization was 14 hosting that or -- I don't think, the two fire 15 departments, they were but possibly the one -- 16 but I think that was just collecting signatures 17 at the fairgrounds. 18 Q Let me refine my question a little bit. 19 A Okay. 20 Q So I understand there's monthly or semi regular 21 meetings -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- of CRAA? 24 A None. Never attended or even been invited, to 25 my knowledge. And I'm not on -- they might -- I 21 1 hope I'm not speaking out of turn. I'm not on 2 social media or Facebook or any of that. So if 3 those, you know, invitations are extend through 4 those social medias, I'm -- 5 Q It doesn't reach you? 6 A -- unaware of it. Doesn't apply to me. 7 Q Have you ever donated to CRAA? 8 A Yes. 9 Q How much? 10 A $300. 11 Q Is that all at one time? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When did you do that? 14 A Very start. Very start. 15 Q Have you ever communicated with other people via 16 email or text message about the annexation? 17 A No. 18 Q When you signed the remonstrance petition 19 originally, did you understand you were 20 expressing opposition to the annexation? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Are you still opposed to the annexation? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Why? 25 A To recap, I feel the city is mismanaged. Has 22 1 been ever since I moved to Bloomington in 1996 2 under Fernandez, Kruzan ... 3 Q Hamilton? 4 A Hamilton, I'm sorry. And I just heard the new 5 mayor on New Addition earlier this month, maybe 6 the end of January. Her question was put to 7 her -- she ran on a platform of affordable 8 housing. And they were talking about affordable 9 housing on this forum or news show, and somebody 10 called in or asked a question about getting 11 business to move to Bloomington with jobs. And 12 her response was "No, we need to build 13 affordable housing first." 14 Well, I'm a commerce guy and the jobs got 15 to come first before people can afford housing 16 to pay for their housing. So building housing 17 prior to getting business is counterproductive 18 in my view. And I travel a 75-mile radius; I go 19 to estate auctions. I go over to Columbus; 20 they've got a big industrial park in Columbus. 21 You can go to Mooresville; they've got a big 22 industrial park with jobs there. And pretty 23 much -- even in Bedford, there's some industry 24 moving in there. Not a lot. 25 To recap, I've lived in Bloomington 25 23 1 years. They don't attract any business. They 2 bought this technical park. This land just to 3 the northwest of this building was all IU 4 warehouses, which the city bought from that and 5 were going to turn it into a technical park, 6 which no businesses, to my knowledge, have moved 7 in. 8 Now on the flip side, Bill Cook was well 9 established in this community and thought highly 10 of Bloomington. Bill Cook businesses and he 11 started Cook Pharmica in the city, and that's 12 now been purchased by Catalent, who's expanded 13 that. But that expansion was pretty much due to 14 the COVID virus and packaging the -- the 15 injections. 16 Q Vaccines? 17 A Yeah, thank you. So I don't see business being 18 attracted here. Again, my taxes always went up. 19 We asked Mayor Hamilton -- and I heard him asked 20 on FIU, I heard him asked in the paper -- "What 21 are you going to do for us when you annex us?" 22 And he admitted. He said, "We're not going to 23 do anything." 24 So the city is not going to add any 25 services. They are going to force me to 24 1 purchase their sanitation service, which I pay, 2 on an independent service, one third of what the 3 city is going to charge me. And I have 4 neighbors -- now I went around the city -- or 5 around my neighborhood collecting signatures and 6 talking to my neighbors. There's neighbors that 7 are on fixed incomes. That cannot afford the 8 taxes increase and/or the forced garbage 9 service. They don't know what they're going to 10 do. One of them lives diagonally behind. Her 11 name is Sue May. She is willing to testify to 12 that effect. She is semi invalid and probably 13 couldn't come down here to testify or make 14 testimony to you in person. But she's available 15 to be talked to. 16 And I had other neighbors that I talked 17 that wouldn't sign the remonstrance because they 18 were afraid of retaliation. Now why, didn't go 19 into it. I didn't pry. They just said, "I'm 20 against it but I won't sign because I'm afraid." 21 Q Let me ask you about the mayor comment. 22 A All right. 23 Q Did you hear him on a program? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Yourself? 25 1 A Yes. And quoted in the paper. 2 Q Right. I understand quoted in the paper. But 3 it was the mayor's voice on a radio or internet 4 program or TV that you heard? 5 A Right. Ask the Mayor, I believe, on FIU. Every 6 Wednesday, they do the surrendering counties. 7 Didn't mean to interrupt. 8 Q That's all right. What do you remember the 9 question being? 10 A Just basically what new and additional services 11 were going to be added. Specifically, there was 12 quotes from people in the paper. Some people -- 13 now I'm on city water and sewage. Some people 14 in Section 1A and 1B are on septic tank, and 15 they asked specifically "Can we hook up to the 16 city?" And the answer was "Yes. $15,000 per 17 property." 18 Some people were asked "What about adding 19 sidewalks to our neighborhoods?" Because a lot 20 of the neighborhoods don't have it. Sidewalks. 21 "Yes, we'll put sidewalks in but we'll charge 22 you for them." 23 Q This is on the radio program? 24 A Radio -- no, on the septic tank and sidewalks, 25 were newspaper quotes. 26 1 Q Okay. I appreciate you sharing that 2 information. I just want to understand -- 3 A Sure. No, I want to be clear. 4 Q I appreciate that. On the Ask The Mayor on 5 WFIU, the question along the lines of what new 6 or additional services will the city provide if 7 we're annexed. Fair summary of the question? 8 A That's my understanding as I recall. 9 Q Your testimony, I think, is in the answer, the 10 mayor said we wouldn't provide -- 11 A No, additional anything. 12 Q No additional -- 13 A Just fire. Fire and police. And I'm 14 assuming -- and this is a big assumption on my 15 part -- snow removal come winter. 16 Q So did you understand in his answer to be saying 17 that the annexation area landowners would 18 receive the same city services that everyone 19 else receives and nothing beyond those? Or are 20 you saying something different? 21 A I think I'm saying something different. I think 22 I'm saying they anticipated providing police, 23 fire, street services -- as in, snow removal -- 24 and nothing more. 25 I think, as I recall, somebody asked about 27 1 parks. And the response was there would be no 2 new or additional parks in the annexation areas. 3 Q Did you understand, though, that if the 4 annexation occurred, that the landowners in the 5 annexation area would be -- if there was a 6 charge, for example, at a city park -- they 7 would be able to pay the in-city fee as opposed 8 to the out-of-city fee? 9 A Yes. You mean as in, like, parks and rec, where 10 they have the programs? 11 Q Right. 12 A Yeah. So if we were annexed, we would be part 13 of the city and we have a right to those 14 programs. And we were told -- when we started 15 to oppose annexation, our sewage and water rates 16 went up 11 percent. Now my neighborhood is 60 17 years old. So the infrastructure is already 18 there. But the city council passed and we have 19 a surcharge of 11 percent on our bills every 20 month for being nonresident users of the 21 existing city and water sewage systems; but -- 22 and I will clarify that for you -- if we 23 accepted annexation, that 11 percent surcharge 24 would go away. 25 Q So you're on the city water and sewer. Would 28 1 you -- go ahead. 2 A I was just going to say, I'm aware of three 3 cave-ins on my street; two sewer and one water. 4 The one cave-in is at the corner of my property. 5 It's been there for five years. They just came 6 out, put a barricade. 7 One of the residents in my neighborhood 8 works for City of Bloomington Utilities. He 9 says they're understaffed, and they only respond 10 to emergency repairs and anything else that 11 needs to be done, the city is going to contract 12 out, third-party people, to do maintenance work. 13 Q Sorry. What's that neighbor's name? 14 A Ryan -- I'm sorry. 15 Q If it comes to you, you can add it. 16 A Yeah. I'll -- yeah. 17 Q So on the city and water service that you have 18 right now, would you be agreeable to 19 disconnecting from that service if annexation 20 does not become effective? 21 A Do I have a choice? 22 Q Just asking the question. 'Cause it's the City 23 of Bloomington Utility provides the water and 24 sewer service -- 25 A Right. 29 1 Q -- and you pay the fee, the monthly charges. 2 A Right. 3 Q But if annexation didn't happen and Bloomington 4 said we're not going to provide services -- 5 A Well -- 6 Q -- outside of our boundaries, would you be 7 opposed to that? 8 A Let me throw this curve at you. The line I'm on 9 was installed to accommodate the GE Plant when 10 it was built on Curry Pike because they wanted 11 city water. So they threw that line in. My two 12 streets back up to the old GE facility, which is 13 now Cook, which is being subleased to a chip 14 maker and was being renovated by Cook. 15 So my understanding is that the City of 16 Bloomington has a contract with Cook to supply 17 water to their facility, and I'm on that line. 18 So I don't know how they would disconnect me. 19 Q They can just disconnect your lateral, for 20 example. 21 A They can turn it off, right, from the main. My 22 utilities run down the back line. But that 23 seems counterproductive to me, but I can't deny 24 your hypothesis. 25 Q Let me ask this way: Do you think it's in your 30 1 best interest to continue receiving the water 2 and sewer services from the City of Bloomington? 3 A Well, I pay my bills and I would expect them to 4 continue it. Seem to say me a commitment on 5 their part when they put those lines in, for 6 whatever reason. I shared with you my 7 understanding that it was put in as an offshoot 8 to, really, sell water -- or provide water to 9 old GE, which is now currently the Cook 10 property. 11 Q So you think when a sewer line is installed and 12 there were conditions on it, those conditions 13 should you be honored? 14 A I believe so. And I might add that, 15 approximately, I think it was pre COVID so we're 16 probably going back four years, the city did pay 17 an outside contractor to line the pipes because 18 they were leaking sewage, specifically. 19 So I'd like to think that they made an 20 investment and they weren't going to just walk 21 away from that investment. But I could be 22 wrong. 23 Q I asked you about why you opposed the annexation 24 and you have given some information, city 25 mismanaged and things like that. Is the change 31 1 in property taxes to your parcel a basis for 2 your opposition to the annexation? 3 A At the time the number that was quoted to me 4 downstairs, it was a 60 percent increase. It 5 would not -- personally, I have to admit, it 6 would not cripple me to pay the increase taxes. 7 But I have, again -- now as I said, I walk my 8 dogs up and down the neighborhood. There's 9 approximately 95 houses on my two streets. And 10 I stop and talk to anybody that wants to talk, 11 and I've always asked their views and opinions 12 on annexation; and there's a lot of concerned, 13 worried people about the tax increase and the 14 sanitation, forced sanitation services. 15 Q Have you ever revived the City of Bloomington's 16 fiscal plan that was adopted as part of the 17 annexation ordinance in 2021? 18 A I believe they sent me a copy and I read it 19 thoroughly. 20 Q It was like a 500-page report. Is that what you 21 read? 22 A Right. And there was -- now there was two. 23 There was an economic development plan for 24 developing 3rd Street corridor from Curry to Ivy 25 Tech, which was online, which was very 32 1 extensive. Then I received a big booklet from 2 the city outlining their proposal. And what 3 kind of concerned my about that was there was no 4 outreach from the city saying -- or any public 5 forums, "Hey, people we would like to consider 6 annexing you. What's your thoughts?" They just 7 sent the annexation. This is back in 2017 where 8 they just said "We're annexing you." 9 Q Did you get a packet -- 10 A I got a packet. 11 Q -- from 2021 -- 12 A It wasn't 500 pages what I got. Oh, I got 13 another one. I got one in '17 and, if it was 14 '21, another follow up after the, you know, the 15 state legislature stopped the first annexation. 16 That went to the Supreme Court. It was 17 overruled. So the city came back again and sent 18 out certified mail -- 19 Q Right. 20 A -- another booklet. I believe I still have 21 that. 22 Q The fiscal plan is a specific document. It's 23 Fiscal Plan 5.0. 24 A Where they went into purchasing equipment, 25 sanitation equipment, expanding the police 33 1 staff. 2 Q Right. Financial impact on overlapping taxing 3 authorities. 4 A Right. 5 Q So you've looked at that? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I'm not vastly familiar with it. But I have 9 looked through it. 10 Q Do you have any opinion or understanding of 11 whether the fiscal plan that you received in 12 2021 complies with Indiana law? Or you don't 13 know one way or the other? 14 A I don't know one way or the other. 15 Q Do you have any information to suggest that the 16 fiscal plan is, somehow, inaccurate or 17 inadequate under Indiana law? 18 A Inadequate under law, not to my knowledge. 19 Q Or inaccurate? 20 A I believe it was inaccurate only because, in 21 previous lives, I worked in purchasing and 22 purchasing fleets. And I did study -- having 23 worked at Bloomington Transit, I was vastly 24 familiar with their operation. And the 25 sanitation -- I remember looking at the 34 1 sanitation. I didn't feel they were going to be 2 able to purchase enough equipment. They were 3 going to expand the bus company. Didn't see 4 that as a possibility. And the sanitation 5 services, I didn't feel the plan was adequate to 6 purchase new and additional equipment to expand 7 to cover the new annexed areas. 8 Q And that observation is based on your life 9 experience -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q -- work history, and things like that? 12 A Purchasing requirements, lead time for 13 purchasing equipment. Sanitation equipment is 14 very specialize. Buses, there's a five-year 15 delay in ordering new buss. 16 (Exhibit 28 previously marked.) 17 Q If you look at the documents on the table there, 18 there's one with an Exhibit 28 sticker on it. 19 The title is "Amended and Supplemented Answers 20 of County Residents Against Annexation to the 21 City of Bloomington's Interrogatories." 22 Do you see that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Can you turn please to page 12, Question 13. 25 "Identify and list all facts and documents 35 1 supporting your contention in the petition that 2 the annexation is not in the best interest of 3 owners of land in the annexation territory." 4 Do you see that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q If you turn to the next question on page 13, 7 under the supplemental answer heading, it says 8 "See Supplemental Answer Number 5. In addition, 9 if called to testify, the following would be 10 asked to testify about the impact of annexation 11 upon them and upon their businesses," and on the 12 very last line of that paragraph, do you see 13 your name there, Harry Ferris? 14 A End of last line, right? 15 Q Yes. 16 A Okay, yes. 17 Q So you've testified already a lot about sort of 18 your perception of the impact of the annexation 19 on others in your neighborhood or people you've 20 talked to, people on fixed incomes, for example. 21 You talked about your impression of the city and 22 mismanagement and the staffing levels at the 23 police, the fire, and utility. My question 24 is -- and probably some other things too. I 25 don't want rehash what we've already talked 36 1 about. 2 A Understand. 3 Q Is there other information or testimony that you 4 have to offer about why you thing the annexation 5 would not be in the best interest of the 6 landowners in the annexation areas that we 7 haven't talked about? 8 A According to my research, there's two state 9 statutes. One is population density; we don't 10 meet the criteria for population density. And 11 the other is 60 percent of the land in our 12 proposed annexed area isn't commercial. 13 Q Have you done an analysis of the population 14 density on a persons per square acre basis -- 15 A Personally? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A No. 18 Q Have you seen an analysis? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Where have you seen that analysis? 21 A Some public -- when I say "public," it's media 22 document analysis. And I don't -- I can't cite 23 who that was done by other than two or three 24 times -- two different sources. Now the two or 25 three -- I have to admit, two or three sources 37 1 might have been quoting each other. I don't 2 know that. My understanding that the 3 population, grossly under the state criteria. 4 Q So if it's three persons per acre, is it your 5 recollection that it was short in -- 6 A My understanding was one and a half. 7 Q But for both 1A and 1B? Or just one and not the 8 other? 9 A 1A. And the 60 percent zoned commercial, 10 likewise, for 1A. Can't speak to 1B. 11 Q Okay. That was what I -- 12 A That's what you wanted. 13 Q That's what I wanted to understand. Anything 14 else about best interest that we haven't talked 15 about that you think would support your 16 observation that the annexation is not in the 17 best interest of landowners? 18 A Again, just to reiterate: mismanagement, 19 history of mismanagement, understaffed police 20 and fire -- which are two biggies for me. And 21 personally not the taxation but -- 22 Q But for other people? 23 A Most definitely. Most definitely. Some people 24 thought they would have to move, but I don't 25 think they can afford to move or they would. 38 1 Old Highland Village, I don't know if you're 2 vastly familiar with the area, but it's a lot of 3 people on fixed incomes. Lot of people on fixed 4 incomes. 5 Q I don't remember if I asked you this at the very 6 beginning. Do you have an intent, present 7 intent to -- 8 A Yeah, you asked me. To move, no. My answer 9 was, no. 10 Q Do you have a mortgage on your property? 11 A No. 12 Q So when you pay your taxes, you pay them 13 directly. 14 A Yes. 15 Q As opposed to the bank or the mortgage company? 16 A Yes, right. 17 Q Do you have the Homestead exemption? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Are you 65 or over? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you have the 65 over -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q Over 65 circuit breaker on your property? 24 A Yes. My wife told me we were. So let me -- 25 Q As far as you know? 39 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you know how Bloomington's municipal tax rate 3 compares to the tax rate of other cities in 4 Indiana? 5 A Only my sources from the media. And it's the 6 highest, is what I've heard, according to the 7 media that I read or heard. 8 Q Highest in -- 9 A I haven't researched it myself. 10 Q Highest in Monroe County, or highest compared to 11 other cities in Indiana? 12 A In the state. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Now I can't imagine places like Carmel or 15 Westfield aren't higher but ... 16 MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Ferris those are all the 17 questions I have for you at this time. Thank 18 you very much. I appreciate it. 19 MR. BEGGS: No questions. Thank you. We'd 20 like signature. 21 (Time noted: 2:30 p.m.) 22 23 24 25 40 1 AND FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 2 3 4 ____________________ 5 HARRY FERRIS 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MONROE ) 3 I, Colleen Brady, a Notary Public in and for 4 the County of Monroe, State of Indiana at large, do 5 hereby certify that HARRY FERRIS, the deponent 6 herein, was by me first duly sworn to tell the 7 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 8 in the aforementioned matter; 9 That the foregoing deposition was taken on 10 behalf of the Respondents, at the offices of 11 Bloomington City Hall, 401 North Morton Street, 12 Room 225, Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on 13 the 27th day of February 2024, commencing at the 14 hour of 1:41 p.m., pursuant to the Indiana Rules of 15 Trial Procedure; 16 That said deposition was taken down 17 stenographically and transcribed under my 18 direction, and that the typewritten transcript is a 19 true record of the testimony given by the said 20 deponent; and thereafter presented to said deponent 21 for his signature; 22 That the parties were represented by their 23 counsel as aforementioned. 24 I do further certify that I am a disinterested 25 person in this cause of action; that I am not a 42 1 relative or attorney of any party, or otherwise 2 interested in the event of this action, and am not 3 in the employ of the attorneys for any party. 4 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 5 hand and affixed my notarial seal on this 15th 6 day of March 2024. 7 8 9 <%25563,Signature%> Colleen Brady 10 11 12 Seal, Notary Public My Commission Expires: State of Indiana March 8, 2029 13 Colleen Brady County of Residence: 14 Commission No. NP0732235 Monroe 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Veritext Legal Solutions 1100 Superior Ave Suite 1820 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 Phone: 216-523-1313 March 15, 2024 To: Mr. Beggs Case Name: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington Et Al Veritext Reference Number: 6465804 Witness: Harry Ferris Deposition Date: 2/27/2024 Dear Sir/Madam: The deposition transcript taken in the above-referenced matter, with the reading and signing having not been expressly waived, has been completed and is available for review and signature. Please call our office to make arrangements for a convenient location to accomplish this or if you prefer a certified transcript can be purchased. If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived. Sincerely, Production Department NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465804 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington Et Al DATE OF DEPOSITION: 2/27/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Harry Ferris 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have made no changes to the testimony as transcribed by the court reporter. 8 _______________ ________________________ 9 Date Harry Ferris 10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a Notary Public in and for the State and County, 11 the referenced witness did personally appear and acknowledge that: 12 They have read the transcript; 13 They signed the foregoing Sworn Statement; and 14 Their execution of this Statement is of their free act and deed. 15 I have affixed my name and official seal 16 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 17 ___________________________________ 18 Notary Public 19 ___________________________________ Commission Expiration Date 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465804 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council Of The City Of Bloomington Et Al DATE OF DEPOSITION: 2/27/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Harry Ferris 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have listed my changes on the attached Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as 8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s). 9 I request that these changes be entered as part of the record of my testimony. 10 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well 11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize that both be appended to the transcript of my 12 testimony and be incorporated therein. 13 _______________ ________________________ Date Harry Ferris 14 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a 15 Notary Public in and for the State and County, the referenced witness did personally appear 16 and acknowledge that: 17 They have read the transcript; They have listed all of their corrections 18 in the appended Errata Sheet; They signed the foregoing Sworn 19 Statement; and Their execution of this Statement is of 20 their free act and deed. 21 I have affixed my name and official seal 22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date 1 ERRATA SHEET VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS MIDWEST 2 ASSIGNMENT NO: 2/27/2024 3 PAGE/LINE(S) / CHANGE /REASON 4 ___________________________________________________ 5 ___________________________________________________ 6 ___________________________________________________ 7 ___________________________________________________ 8 ___________________________________________________ 9 ___________________________________________________ 10 ___________________________________________________ 11 ___________________________________________________ 12 ___________________________________________________ 13 ___________________________________________________ 14 ___________________________________________________ 15 ___________________________________________________ 16 ___________________________________________________ 17 ___________________________________________________ 18 ___________________________________________________ 19 _______________ ________________________ 20 Date Harry Ferris 21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS ________ 22 DAY OF ________________________, 20______ . 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date