1 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MONROE ) 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MONROE COUNTY 4 CAUSE NO. 53C06-2203-PL-000509 5 6 COUNTY RESIDENTS AGAINST ) ANNEXATION, INC., an Indiana not) 7 for profit corporation, et al. ) ) 8 ) ) 9 Remonstrators/Appellants/Petitio) ners, ) 10 ) -vs- ) 11 ) THE COMMON COUNCIL of the City ) 12 of Bloomington, Monroe County, ) Indiana, et al. ) 13 ) Respondents. ) 14 15 DEPOSITION OF THOMAS MCGHIE 16 17 The deposition upon oral examination of THOMAS 18 MCGHIE, a witness produced and sworn before me, Colleen Brady, Notary Public in and for the County 19 of Monroe, State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the Respondents, at the offices of Bloomington City 20 Hall, 401 North Morton Street, Room 225, Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on the 21 27th day of February 2024, at 2:38 p.m., pursuant to the Indiana Rules of Trial Procedure with 22 written notice as to time and place thereof. 23 24 25 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 FOR THE PETITIONERS: 3 William J. Beggs BUNGER & ROBERTSON 4 211 South College Avenue Bloomington, IN 47404 5 812.332.9295 wjbeggs@lawbr.com 6 7 FOR THE RESPONDENTS: 8 Andrew M. McNeil 9 BOSE MCKINNEY & EVANS LLP 111 Monument Circle 10 Suite 2700 Indianapolis, IN 46204 11 317.684.5000 amcneil@boselaw.com 12 13 14 15 ALSO PRESENT: 16 Margaret Clements 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Page 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Questions by Andrew M. McNeil 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 Page Deposition Exhibit No.: 3 Exhibit 44 - Monroe County property . . . . . . . .26 4 information document, Bloomington_199222-229 5 Exhibit 45 - Monroe County Low TaxInfo . . . . . .28 6 document, Bloomington_199219-221 7 Exhibit 46 - Answers of Richard Peach to . . . . .35 8 City of Bloomington First Set of Requests for Admissions 9 10 11 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 12 Page Previously Marked Exhibits: 13 Exhibit 27 - Answers of County Residents . . . . .34 14 Against Annexation Inc., to City of Bloomington's First Set 15 of Request for Admissions 16 Exhibit 28 - Amended and Supplemented . . . . . . .32 Answers of County Residents 17 Against Annexation Inc. to City of Bloomington's 18 Interrogatories 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 (Time noted: 2:38 p.m.) 2 THOMAS MCGHIE, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole 4 truth, and nothing but the truth relating to said 5 matter, was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION, 8 QUESTIONS BY ANDREW M. MCNEIL: 9 Q Please state your name for the record. 10 A Thomas Wayne McGhie. 11 Q Mr. McGhie, we met once before, at least 12 formally in a deposition, and I know we've seen 13 each other in court from time to time. My name 14 is Andrew McNeil, and I'm one of the attorneys 15 for the city of Bloomington in the remonstrance 16 trial case. 17 Other than the time when we took your 18 deposition a year and a half or so ago, have you 19 been part of any other depositions? 20 A No. 21 Q If you remember, some of the ground rules, I'm 22 going to ask you a series of questions and your 23 job is to answer them as completely and 24 truthfully as you can. Do you understand that? 25 A I do. 6 1 Q If you don't understand my question, will you 2 let me know? 3 A I certainly will. 4 Q If I need to rephrase something, will you let me 5 know that too? 6 A Will do. 7 Q We're trying to keep these on a tight 45-minute 8 schedule, 45 minutes to an hour. Even so, if 9 you need to take a break for any reason, will 10 you let me know that? 11 A Will do. 12 Q What is your address? 13 A 4175 South Purple Finch Drive. 14 Q Is that in Annexation Area 1B? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How long have you lived at that address? 17 A Since 2017. 18 Q Do you own any other real estate in Annexation 19 Area 1A or 1B? 20 A I do not. 21 Q Who lives at that address with you? 22 A My wife and two children. 23 Q What is your wife's name? 24 A Alyson McGhie. 25 Q How old are your children? 7 1 A 9 and 6. 2 Q Do you have any plans to move? 3 A No. 4 Q Where do you work? 5 A I work for Cook Medical. 6 Q Do you know the street address, the building 7 where you work? 8 A 750 Daniels Way. 9 Q What do you do there? 10 A I'm an engineer. 11 Q How long have you worked for Cook Medical? 12 A Since 2008. 13 Q Do you know a person -- I know it's a big 14 organization. Do you know a person there named 15 Scott Snyder? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Does your wife work outside of the home? 18 A She does not. 19 Q To get from your house to your place of 20 employment, what is the route of travel you 21 take? 22 A I typically work from home. When I do go into 23 the office, I would take Highway 69. I'd exit 24 on 3rd Street, and take that to Daniels Way. 25 Q Did you or your spouse sign a petition to 8 1 remonstrate against the annexation? 2 A I did. 3 Q Do you and your family ever eat within the city 4 limits of Bloomington at a restaurant? 5 A We do. 6 Q Do you ever drive through the City of 7 Bloomington for any reason whatsoever? 8 A I do. 9 Q How often, would you say, in the course of a 10 week do you drive into the city limits? 11 A So I came into the city today. Last time I 12 would have done so, I can't remember. A few 13 months ago. Maybe a month ago -- no, I -- I'm 14 not sure where my younger son goes to school. I 15 go there about once a week. So if that's in the 16 city limits, Sherwood Oaks Christian Church. I 17 can't say if it is or isn't. 18 Q Does your 9-year-old attend a public school or a 19 private school somewhere else? 20 A A private school. 21 Q Inside or outside the city? 22 A I assume it's outside the city limits. I don't 23 know for sure. 24 Q Do you attend a church within the city limits? 25 A I do not. 9 1 Q Do you ever use the city parks for any reason? 2 A I do. 3 Q For what purpose? 4 A I have taken my kids there a few times a year. 5 Q Do your children participate in any programs 6 offered by the city parks department? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you attend any civic events within the city 9 limits, like, concerts or plays or other 10 performances? 11 A Not very often. 12 (Off the record.) 13 BY MR. MCNEIL 14 Q When was the last time, if you can remember, 15 attending some kind of civic event within the 16 city limits? 17 A When I proposed to my wife in 2012, we were at a 18 Indiana University event. I'm sure I have been 19 to something since then, but I can't think of a 20 lot. 21 Q You mentioned IU. Do you ever go to basketball 22 or football, or other sporting events there? 23 A Yes, I did go to a Indiana University basketball 24 game about a month ago. So that was maybe 25 another time I've been into the town. 10 1 Q Would you be willing to pay a fee, a user fee, 2 for the use of City of Bloomington's streets and 3 roads? 4 A I wouldn't pay anything that wouldn't be 5 assessed to other visitors. 6 Q You would not pay anything, is that what you 7 said? Would not? 8 A Not if I was singled out. If it was something 9 for all visitors coming to visit. If there was 10 a fee to enter the city, I would certainly 11 consider paying that or not visiting the city. 12 Q If you had to call fire services, what's your 13 understanding of who the primary responder would 14 be to your home on Purple Finch. 15 A I believe it would be Monroe County Fire 16 Protection District, Station 22. 17 Q How far is that from your house, if you know? 18 A 2 miles. I'm not very good at that. 19 Q If there were, say, a fire at your residence or 20 on your property and the City of Bloomington 21 Fire Department was the first responder -- and 22 there's no annexation so you're still in the 23 township -- would you be willing to pay a fee if 24 one was charged? 25 A Certainly. 11 1 Q Are you on the city sewer and water service? 2 A I am. 3 Q Did you understand that your property has an 4 annexation waiver that attached to it that's 5 been voided by General Assembly's 2019 law? 6 A I don't know under what conditions it would or 7 wouldn't apply, but the auditor of Monroe County 8 said it did not stand, and I agree with her. 9 Q You understand that there, at least, is a waiver 10 attached to your property for sewer services in 11 exchange for waiving the right to remonstrate? 12 A I would need a lawyer to explain the details of 13 what there is or isn't there. 14 Q Have you seen the waiver document? 15 A I remember seeing a document before that I had 16 signed. I can't understand the legalese of it. 17 But as I said, the Monroe County auditor did not 18 believe that it prevented me from remonstrating, 19 and I agree with that too. 20 Q Why do you agree with that? 21 A I have not entered a contract with the city when 22 I purchased this house. And I don't understand 23 the legalese of this so I will -- I will say 24 that, I think, it was Smith at the time who said 25 it didn't apply. 12 1 Q Would you be agreeable to disconnecting your 2 home from city water and sewer service if the 3 annexation does not go forward? 4 A If some other organization took over those 5 lines, I would be happy with another service. 6 But I would not want to have no water and sewer. 7 Q Do you believe it's in your best interest to 8 continue to have the City of Bloomington provide 9 the water and sewer service to your residence? 10 A I have no opinion who provides the service. 11 Q Do you believe it's in your best interest to 12 continue to have water and sewer services 13 provided to your residence? 14 A I do. 15 Q County Residents Against Annexation, you're 16 familiar with that organization? 17 A I am. 18 Q Are you on the board of advisors? 19 A I am not. 20 Q Have you ever been? 21 A I have never been on the board of advisors. 22 Q Have you ever been on the board of directors? 23 A No. 24 Q Are you currently -- okay. Have you ever held 25 an office or tile within CRAA? 13 1 A I have not. 2 Q You have attended meetings from time to time? 3 A I have. 4 Q Over the course of the time where the annexation 5 has been out there, have you communicated with 6 others, either by email or text message, about 7 the annexation? 8 A I think I have, yes. 9 Q In the last six months, have you done a search 10 or undertaken any effort to find your electronic 11 communications related to the annexation? 12 A Yes, I have. 13 Q How did you execute that search? 14 A I looked through contacts that I have on my 15 phone or my email of people that I have spoken 16 to and collected all the messages I received or 17 sent to them. 18 Q Did you find any? 19 A I did. 20 Q What did you do with them when you found them? 21 A I provided them to somebody. I don't remember 22 right now who. 23 Q Were you asked to do this search for 24 communications? 25 A Yes, I was. 14 1 Q Do you remember who asked you? 2 A It may have been Margaret. I can't remember. 3 Honestly, I don't remember for sure. 4 Q Your recollection is whatever you found, you 5 gave to somebody whether it was Margaret or 6 somebody at the law firm? 7 A Correct, yes. 8 Q Have you ever donated to County Residents 9 Against Annexation? 10 A I have. 11 Q How much over the course of time have you 12 donated to CRAA? 13 A Less than $5,000 I'd say for sure. More than 14 500. Somewhere between those two numbers. 15 Q When you signed the remonstrance petition back 16 in 2021, where you signifying your opposition to 17 the annexation? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you remain opposed to the annexation today? 20 A I do. 21 Q Why? Tell me all the reason why you're opposed 22 to the annexation? 23 A I do not believe it is in my best interest. The 24 services that I have provided right now, being 25 outside of the city, are better than and cheaper 15 1 than the services I would receive if I was in 2 the city. I also am free from all the 3 ordinances of the city that would restrict my 4 freedoms. 5 Q Any other reasons you're opposed to the 6 annexation? 7 A My taxes would increase, and the services that 8 the city would provide are less than that of the 9 cost of the taxes. 10 Q Can you say that last part again? The services 11 that city provides are less than the cost of the 12 taxes. What do you mean by that? 13 A The city will tax me a dollar and they will 14 provide me with less than a dollar of services. 15 Q Understood. Thank you for that clarification. 16 We'll go back over these in more detail, but I 17 want to first ask, is there anything else, any 18 other reasons why you are opposed to the 19 annexation besides the ones you've given me so 20 far? 21 A I mentioned freedom of ordinances. I mentioned 22 the services I have meet all my needs and are 23 better than what I would get. And I mentioned 24 the financial burden. That's all the reasons I 25 can think of right now. 16 1 Q What services do you receive now that are better 2 and cheaper than what the city would provide if 3 you were annexed? 4 A The Monroe County Sheriff provides better 5 service than the city does, the city police 6 does. The Monroe County solid waste Management 7 District -- I think they have changed their name 8 a few times. They used to be The District. I 9 think they are now The waste reduction District, 10 I can use their services for practically nothing 11 to get rid of solid waste. 12 I have multiple companies, perhaps four or 13 five different private companies vying for my 14 business for waste collection, and they do so at 15 competitive prices. I'm free to select no 16 service if I want. 17 Could you repeat the question? 18 Q Yes. When you say that the services that you 19 now receive are better and cheaper than the 20 services you would receive if annexed, what do 21 you mean? What services are you talking about? 22 You've identified Monroe County Sheriff, 23 Monroe County Solid Waste District, four to five 24 businesses vying for your waste collection 25 business. Any other services that come to mind? 17 1 A I believe Monroe County Public Library would 2 lose funding if I were annexed. That's a 3 service that myself and my family enjoy. Our 4 fire department would lose funding, I believe, 5 if we were annexed, which would further 6 jeopardize my property and my safety. 7 Q What township are you in? 8 A Perry. 9 Q Any other services? 10 A The county does a great job with snow removal, 11 with road maintenance. 12 Q Any others that come to mind? 13 A I can't think of any at the moment. If I think 14 of some, I may come back to them. 15 Q That would be fine. You mentioned the Monroe 16 County Sheriff provides better service than the 17 Bloomington police department. What do you base 18 that on? 19 A They have more officers per population. They 20 spend more dollars per population. They have 21 adequate capital facilities right now. The city 22 is struggling in finding appropriate home for 23 the police department. The city is struggling 24 with hiring and retaining officers. 25 I know in 2021, there was a report that the 18 1 city commissioned to say that they should have, 2 I believe, 121 officers, and at the time they 3 had just over 90. And there's a report that 4 somewhere only around 75 or 76 were available. 5 I don't know quite what that means between the 6 92 number and the 75 number of available. 7 Q Is that the Novak report you're referring to? 8 A I do not know the name of it. But it was a -- 9 it may have been. 10 Q Did you ever read that report, or did you just 11 read about it? 12 A I -- what -- 13 Q Or hear about it? 14 A What I just spoke to was from something I had 15 read in a -- I don't know if it was a 16 resolution, something that was presented by the 17 common council in a motion that, I believe, that 18 the council is making to suggest that the city 19 change its compensation package to police that 20 those numbers came out. 21 Q You mentioned too that you thought the county 22 sheriff had more officers per population. What 23 are you basing that on? 24 A There's a website I went to that provided those 25 numbers. 19 1 Q Do you remember what website? 2 A I cannot think of the name of the website right 3 now. 4 Q Was it a website specific to opposing the 5 annexation? 6 A No. 7 Q Was it a government supported website? 8 A It did not seem to be. It seemed to be some 9 private organization that was rating police and 10 sheriff departments across the country. 11 Q Are you familiar with CALEA as it pertains to 12 the rating of police departments, law 13 enforcement agencies? 14 A No, I am not. 15 Q Do you know what the City of Bloomington's 16 police department rating is under CALEA? 17 A I do not. 18 Q You mentioned that one of your concerns was that 19 the Monroe County Public Library would lose 20 funding if the annexation went forward. What do 21 you base that statement on? 22 A I have seen a number of articles in various, I 23 believe, Hoosier Times, I think it's called B 24 Squared, and the Indiana Public Media -- that's 25 like WFIU -- throwing out various reports. Two 20 1 different reports. One produced by the city and 2 one produced by the county, which had different 3 numbers but both of them showed the library 4 district losing funding. 5 Q Did you understand it to be the library district 6 was losing funding in the sense that it would 7 have less funding than before, or that it's 8 funding would increase less than it would 9 otherwise without the annexation? 10 A I'm not sure I understand the difference. 11 Q When congress cuts spending, it means they 12 appropriate more than they did the year before 13 but less than somebody asked for. So it's kind 14 of a similar concept that I'm getting at here. 15 Is it your understanding that the library 16 budget would decrease, or that it would increase 17 but at a rate less than it would without 18 annexation? 19 A My understanding is that the library would have 20 less money if the annexation went forward than 21 the library would have if the annexation does 22 not go forward. 23 Q But do you have any understanding of how that 24 amount of money available, with or without 25 annexation, compares against a baseline budget 21 1 for the library? 2 A I do not. 3 Q You mentioned the tax impact. I think you said 4 your taxes would increase. Have you done 5 anything to determine by how much your property 6 taxes would increase if the annexation went 7 forward? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What have you done? 10 A In 2021, I believe, the City of Bloomington had 11 a web page. You could type in an address and 12 get some numbers from there. I also looked at a 13 packet that was presented to the common council 14 by the city listing tax rates. And from what I 15 could see in there, it looked like my tax rate 16 would increase by 48 percent. 17 I don't remember what the number was from 18 the city web page, but it was something in that 19 order of magnitude. 20 Q And when you say "tax rate," you mean the 21 percentage rate that would apply against the 22 assessed value would increase 48 percent? Or 23 are you saying that your property taxes 24 themselves would increase 48 percent? 25 Do you understand what I'm asking? 22 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q When any taxing authority, city or county, they 3 have a tax rate. Let's just say it's 2 percent. 4 And you multiply your assessed value by that tax 5 rate to determine -- there's many other things 6 that go into it, but as a rough rule of thumb, 7 that's the starting point. 8 So if the tax rate of $100,000 assessed 9 value is 2 percent, it's a $2,000 tax. Are you 10 with me there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Were you saying that the 48 percent applied 13 to -- increase applied to that 2 percent or to 14 the $2,000? 15 A To the percent. 16 Q So your tax rate percent, you understood from 17 some material presented through the city, would 18 increase around 48 percent? 19 A Yes. And the city web page agreed that my taxes 20 would be going up significantly. I don't 21 remember the percent that it calculated out to 22 be. 23 Q Do you have a mortgage on your property? 24 A I do not. 25 Q Have you filed for the homestead exemption? 23 1 A I have. 2 Q What is your understanding of that the homestead 3 exemption does? 4 A It lowers my taxes. 5 Q Any other exemptions that apply to your property 6 besides the homestead exemption? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What other exemptions do you have? 9 A I believe I get an exemption for having a home 10 line of credit on my house. 11 Q You have no mortgage but you have a home line of 12 credit? 13 A Correct. 14 Q So is that the home line of credit is secured by 15 your house? Like, when the bank gave you the 16 home line of credit, did they require you to put 17 your house as collateral? 18 A I think so. 19 Q So is it your understanding that you get an 20 exemption, a $3,000 exemption based on that? 21 A I do not know what the amount is. 22 Q Any other exemptions aside from the home line of 23 credit and the homestead? 24 A Not that I understand or remember. 25 Q Do you understand that the charges you pay for 24 1 the city water and sewer have an out-of-city 2 surcharge? 3 A I do. 4 Q Is it about 11 percent? 5 A I thought it was around 12 percent. 6 Q Do you understand if the annexation occurs, that 7 surcharge goes away? 8 A I do. 9 Q Do you have any understanding about whether your 10 homeowner's insurance premium would go up, down, 11 or stay the same in the event the annexation 12 went forward? 13 A One of the big factors would be fire protect. 14 And my understanding is that I would not receive 15 the City of Bloomington Fire Protection if we 16 were annexation right now. 17 Q Is that understanding based on state law that 18 the fire district would continue being the 19 provider? 20 A I don't understand why, but it was in a packet 21 that I read presented to common council, I 22 believe, dated from 2021. It was a pretty thick 23 packet, and it described in there that the city 24 was willing to provide but it would not, 25 somehow, end up providing. I would continue to 25 1 receive the prior protection that I have now. 2 But if annexation moved forward, it also 3 reported that that fire district would have less 4 funding, which would mean that my home 5 protection would be even further declined by 6 annexation. 7 Q In this packet you're referring to, did it also 8 report that, if the annexation went forward, the 9 amount of the tax percentage that makes up the 10 fire protection portion of the overall tax rate 11 would go down if you were able to apply the 12 city's fire tax rate? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you know how the City of Bloomington's 15 municipal tax rate compares to other cities in 16 Indiana? 17 A I have seen some material presented by the City 18 of Bloomington pointing out how wonderful their 19 taxes are compared to other cities of their 20 selection. 21 Q Do you recall that report showing that the City 22 of Bloomington's municipal tax rate was the 23 second lowest among 21 cities that were being 24 compared? 25 A I don't remember where it fell. 26 1 Q Do you remember it being on the lower end of the 2 cities that were presented? 3 A The city presented it as such, yes. 4 Q Did you do anything to verify that? 5 A I did not. 6 MR. MCNEIL: I'm going to hand you some 7 exhibits here. This one will be 44. That one 8 is for Bill. 9 (Exhibit 44 marked.) 10 Q Mr. McGhie do you have Exhibit 44 in front of 11 you? 12 A I do. 13 Q At the top of the page, it says "Monroe County 14 Indiana," and then there's an address there. Is 15 that your address? 4175 South Purple Finch 16 Drive? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Are those pictures, pictures of your home? 19 A They are. 20 Q If you turn to the second page, the number in 21 the right-hand corner is 223. Ends 223. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you see the taxing district there, it says 24 Perry Township? 25 A Correct. 27 1 Q The corporation, Monroe County Community. Is 2 that the school corporation that you're in? 3 A I think so. It says so. 4 Q If you go to the next page, page 224, do you see 5 the transfer of ownership section at the top of 6 the page that shows Thomas W. and Alyson M. 7 McGhie purchasing the property or at least 8 having a transfer of ownership? 9 A I do see that. 10 Q September 18, 2017. Does that sound about right 11 in terms of the date you bought the property? 12 A It does. 13 Q Sales price is identified as $365,000. Does 14 that sound about right to you? 15 A Seems about right. 16 Q If you look at the valuation record data, that 17 table there. The second line from the top, 18 2022-04-08. Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q You see that the total valuation as of April 8, 21 2022, was $420,900? 22 A I see that line. 23 Q Do you know who or which agency at Monroe County 24 does the assessed value? 25 A I do not. 28 1 Q Have you ever spoken with the county assessor's 2 office about the valuation of your property? 3 A I have not. 4 (Exhibit 45 marked.) 5 Q I'm going to give you also Exhibit 45. One for 6 you. One for Bill. You get the one with the 7 sticker. You can keep that one in front. Keep 8 that open if you would please. 9 On Exhibit Number 45, do you see at the top 10 of the page the 4175 South Purple Finch address, 11 and then your name and your wife's name to the 12 right? 13 A I do. 14 Q If you turn to the second page, ends in 15 page 220? 16 A Yes. 17 Q There's a tax history section in the both third 18 of the page. Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q It shows for 2023, a spring tax installment of 21 $1,734.92? 22 A I see that. 23 Q And then a fall installment of the same amount. 24 Do you see that? 25 A I do. 29 1 Q The total tax of $3,556.58. Do you see that? 2 A I do. 3 Q Do you pay your taxes -- without a mortgage, do 4 you pay your taxes directly to the county? Or 5 is there an escrow company that pays your taxes? 6 A We pay those directly to the county. 7 Q Looking at that number, that line or row in the 8 tax history or 2023, does that represent the 9 amount of property tax you paid last year? 10 A I believe it does. 11 Q What understanding do you have about how the 12 Indiana property tax caps work on a residential 13 property, if any? 14 A I think, pretty much, nothing. What you just 15 said didn't make -- couldn't quite follow what 16 it would really mean. 17 Q Not the first time in my life or my day. Are 18 you aware or familiar with a proposition under 19 Indiana law that says a homeowner won't have to 20 pay more than 1 percent of the assessed value of 21 their property in property taxes subject to some 22 limited exceptions? 23 A I'm not familiar with that rule. 24 Q If you look at Exhibit 44, which is the one with 25 the valuation record in it. We looked at 2022. 30 1 If you look at the line for 2018, do you see 2 that one, 3-21-2018? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Total valuation of $357,400? 5 A I do. 6 Q And then looking back at Exhibit 45, if you look 7 at the tax history for 2019, do you see where 8 the total tax is $2,654.52? 9 A Are we on the second page again? 10 Q Yeah, tax history for 2019. Do you see where 11 the total tax is $2,654.52? 12 A I see that. 13 Q Do you perceive that the tax increase on your 14 property from the assessed value alone from 2018 15 to 2022 is approximately a 34 percent increase? 16 A There's an increase there. I wouldn't want to 17 wager on the percentage there. I would not 18 argue with what you said as being reasonable. 19 Q Simple calculator would confirm it; right? 20 A Yes. In that report from the city, they also 21 anticipated that my home value would further 22 increase if annexed, which would increase my 23 liability even more so. 24 Q Did that report you're referring to assume, if 25 you remember, a 3 percent increase in assessed 31 1 value per year? 2 A I didn't see that. It just said annexed 3 residents would enjoy increased home values or 4 something to that extent. Which I read as would 5 enjoy increase in tax liability. I would not 6 enjoy that. 7 Q Well, you've enjoyed an increase in tax 8 liability while living in the county just based 9 on the growth and assessed value; correct? 10 A Increase in assessed value, yes. 11 Q And you've paid your taxes every year in full; 12 right? 13 A I believe there's a delinquency showing there of 14 $86.74. 15 Q Which you've since paid; correct? 16 A My wife pays the bill. I'm not sure how that 17 happened. 18 Q Fair. To your knowledge, your household has 19 paid the property taxes due on your property 20 every year? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You have been able to afford those tax payments; 23 correct? 24 A We have been able to pay those bills. There are 25 a lot of other things I could have done with 32 1 that money. 2 (Exhibit 28 previously marked.) 3 Q If I didn't have to pay income tax, I would be 4 wealthy. There's a document -- you can put 5 those documents aside. We're done with those. 6 There's a document up further from you, 7 Exhibit 28. If you would get that in front of 8 you please. We'll look at in a second. 9 Are you familiar with what's known as an 10 agreement in lieu of annexation? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever heard that term before? 13 A There is an agreement that Cook Medical has with 14 the City of Bloomington that might be something 15 to that extent. They pay, I believe, $100,000 a 16 year for the privilege of not being annexed. 17 Q How do you have that knowledge? How do you know 18 that? 19 A I read about it in B Squared. 20 Q Something you learned about as part of this 21 whole annexation process? 22 A Yeah, it's been -- annexation has been a big 23 part of the news for the last -- since 2017. 24 Q Sure. If you look at Exhibit 28. The title is 25 "Amended and Supplemented Answers of County 33 1 Residents Against Annexation to City of 2 Bloomington's Interrogatories." 3 Do you see that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q If you turn to page 5 please, Question five. 6 A Question 5. 7 Q Yes. "Identify and list all facts and documents 8 supporting your contention in the petition that 9 Ordinance Nos. 17-09 and 17-10 fail to include 10 equitable terms and conditions required by," and 11 then there's an Indiana Code citation. 12 Do you see that? 13 A I see that. 14 Q If you turn the page to page 6 please. The 15 fourth paragraph down, the one that starts with 16 your name, do you see that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And I'm going to skip the names that aren't you. 19 It says "Thomas McGhie is anticipated to testify 20 that he was not offered an in-lieu-of agreement 21 despite the fact that other property owners in 22 Area 1A and 1B were offered such an agreement." 23 Do you see that? 24 A I see that. 25 Q Do you have any knowledge or information about 34 1 whether you would be open to an in-lieu 2 agreement on the same relative terms that Cook 3 Medical has? 4 A I could not afford $100,000 to avoid annexation. 5 Q No, I understand that. That's what I meant by 6 same relative terms. So something that's scaled 7 to your personal property. Have you ever spoken 8 to anybody at the city about an agreement in 9 lieu of annexation? 10 A No, I have not. 11 Q Would you be willing to pay 75 percent of the 12 Bloomington tax rate not to be annexed? 13 A That would require quite a bit of thought on my 14 part. I never considered a particular percent. 15 It would feel sort of like a blackmail. 16 Q So before I asked this question just now, had 17 you ever thought about potentially paying a fee 18 in lieu of being annexed? 19 A No. 20 (Exhibit 27 previously marked.) 21 Q If you could set 28 aside, we'll come back to 22 that in a moment. If you could get Exhibit 27 23 in front of you, and I want to give you 24 Exhibit 46 to go along with 27. 25 All right. So Exhibit 46, the title of 35 1 which is "Answers of Thomas McGhie to the City 2 of Bloomington's First Set of Requests for 3 Admissions." 4 Do you see that? 5 (Exhibit 46 marked.) 6 A Yes. 7 Q If you turn to page 3 and 4, you will see that 8 there were five separate requests for 9 admissions. 10 A Say that again. Five separate what? 11 Q On pages 3 and 4, there are five separate 12 statements. 13 A Yes, that I see. Numbers 1 through 5. 14 Q And you were asked to either admit or deny or 15 otherwise respond to those requests. And you 16 say the answers given are "See response of 17 County Residents Against Annexation severed on 18 or about August 4, 2023," to all five of them? 19 A I do. 20 Q Now if you look at Exhibit 27 please. Those are 21 the answers of the County Residents Against 22 Annexation -- 23 A Which pages were you saying? 24 Q Right now the first page. 25 A Okay. 36 1 Q Do you see that Exhibit 27 is the CRAA's answers 2 to the requests for admissions? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now if you turn to pages 3 and 4 please. Do you 5 see there, where there are the same five 6 requests for admissions that were on Exhibit 46? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Number 2 on page 3, says "Admit that 9 Bloomington has developed and adopted a written 10 fiscal plan and established a definite policy 11 for each annexation territory by resolution as 12 set forth in," and an Indiana Code cite. 13 Do you see that? 14 A I see that. 15 Q The answer from CRAA is a denial. Do you see 16 that? It says "Deny." 17 A I see that. 18 Q What information, if any, do you have that 19 Bloomington has not developed or adopted a 20 written fiscal plan and established a definite 21 policy for each annexation territory as required 22 by the Indiana Code? 23 A Please say your question again. 24 MR. MCNEIL: Can you read that back, 25 please, Colleen? 37 1 (Requested text was read by the reporter.) 2 A The Indiana Code is quite long and has some very 3 detailed requirements for that fiscal plan. 4 There is, I believe, some question as to whether 5 any plans that the city has presented meet all 6 of those requirements. 7 Q We'll come back to that answer in a second. 8 Look at page 4, if you would, please. Number 3. 9 Admit that the plan complies with Indiana Code 10 Section 36-4-3-13(d), as in "David," for each 11 annexation territory. And that's denied. 12 Do you see that? 13 A I see that. 14 Q Now going back to your prior answer, what 15 information do you possess that the fiscal plan 16 adopted by the City of Bloomington does not 17 comply with the requirements of the Indiana Code 18 provision cited there? 19 A I would have to look through those codes in 20 detail. I cannot remember the specifics, what 21 36-4-3-13(d) covered. 22 Q Did you at some point in time review the fiscal 23 plan and compare it against the requirements 24 under Indiana law, you personally? 25 A Me, personally, no. 38 1 Q Do you know of anyone who has done that on 2 behalf of the CRAA group or the remonstrators to 3 the annexation? 4 A Personally, no. 5 Q So an answer to a few questions ago, and I'm not 6 going to be able to quote you, but I'm going to 7 paraphrase or try to convey the gist of your 8 response was that there was information out 9 there that questioned whether the fiscal plan 10 from the city complied with the requirements of 11 the law. Did I get that, generally, right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What are you referring to when you gave that 14 answer specifically? 15 A I believe that is based on material prepared by 16 my counsel. 17 Q Is this material that you have seen in the last 18 60 days? 19 A No. 20 Q Longer ago than that? Let me -- poor question. 21 A I may not be quite understanding your questions. 22 Q Is it your belief that there are deficiencies in 23 the city's fiscal plan? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What do you believe is deficient in the city's 39 1 fiscal plan? 2 A One of the things I noticed in a plan that was 3 presented that they said they would need 800 4 garbage and recycling bins for all the annexed 5 areas, which would come out to, like, one pair 6 of garbage and recycling for every 35 1/2 -- 35 7 residents. Which doesn't seem like it would be 8 adequate. 9 Q Was that specific to a particular annexation 10 territory or was that being applied to all 11 seven? 12 A That was, at the time, being applied to all 13 seven of them. 14 Q Any other ways in which you believe the fiscal 15 plan is deficient. 16 A I don't know any other details personally. 17 Q This is a longer question that I'm going to read 18 because I need to make sure I get it right. So 19 I'll just ask you to indulge me and listen to 20 this question, and then let me know if you can 21 answer it or if you need it rephrased or 22 anything. 23 "Do you have any information to suggest 24 that the fiscal plan from the City of 25 Bloomington does not represent a credible 40 1 commitment by the city to provide noncapital 2 services to Areas 1A and 1B -- noncapital 3 services being things like sidewalk, 4 streetlights, police services -- in a manner 5 that's equivalent to the standard and scope of 6 those services that are provided to the areas 7 within the city limits within one year of the 8 effective date of the annexation?" 9 MR. BEGGS: Object to form. Foundation. 10 You may answer. 11 A The city said it would take four years to hire 12 the police officers necessary for annexing the 13 areas. I believe that would be considered 14 noncapital. 15 Q So with police services, there's the hiring 16 question that you've identified. But are you 17 aware of any information that says the city 18 would not provide police patrols in the 19 annexation area with its current staffing for 20 four years? 21 A I don't remember them explicitly saying that. 22 How they would deal with shortfall. It neither 23 said that they would or would not do it in 24 particular areas. 25 Q Any other information you have with respect to 41 1 the commitment in the fiscal plan to provide 2 noncapital services on the same scope and 3 equivalent standard as applied in city limits? 4 MR. BEGGS: Object to form and foundation. 5 A Parks would be considered capital I believe. 6 I'm not sure on the definition of what's capital 7 services. 8 The city plan said they would not be 9 planning to put in any parks into Area 1B, where 10 I live. Yet they have many parks dozens of 11 parks in other areas. 12 Q And as a city resident, you would be -- if 13 annexed -- you would be able to utilize those 14 city parks on the same terms as any other city 15 resident; correct? 16 A They wouldn't be near my home. That's the big 17 part of the park, walking your kids over to the 18 park and enjoy the park. It would require quite 19 a bit of an ordeal to get to them, yes. 20 Q Of course a precursor to establishing a new park 21 is available land and space; correct? 22 A I've never planned a park. I couldn't confirm 23 that. 24 Q Any other information to suggest the city's 25 fiscal plan somehow falls short of a credible 42 1 commitment to provide noncapital -- and I'm 2 going to add -- or capital services to the 3 annexation areas following the annexation? 4 MR. BEGGS: Same objection. Form and 5 foundation. 6 A The fire protection, I would not receive the 7 same fire protection that other residents of the 8 City of Bloomington would or that was proposed 9 to be offered to other areas being annexed. 10 Q Is that because you would still be under the 11 fire district's service territory? 12 A The Monroe County Fire Protection District. 13 Q Would still be your provider? 14 A Yes. And so I would have a worse service than 15 what is available to other city residents. 16 Q I think I asked you this, but do you understand 17 that that's a function of state law? 18 A I don't understand the functions of things 19 there. 20 Another things is the city said in it's 21 plan it would be spending somewhere in the range 22 of 59 cents in services provided to me for every 23 dollar in taxes I would receive, which makes me 24 wonder where is the remaining 41 cents going 25 other than to provide additional services and 43 1 capital to other areas besides mine. 2 Q You wonder but you don't know. Is that a fair 3 statement? 4 A The city would have to be spending that money on 5 somewhere else. 6 Q Are you familiar with what's called an 7 impoundment fund? 8 A I read about an impoundment fund in this packet 9 that was presented to the common council. 10 Q What do you understand an impoundment fund to 11 be? 12 A For a limited number of years, the money, the 13 taxes collected in the area would go to this 14 impoundment fund. The impoundment fund would 15 have, I believe, seven members that would 16 control it. And four of those members would be 17 appointed by the mayor or the city council, 18 giving them the majority control over that 19 impoundment fund. 20 At the conclusion of that impoundment fund 21 or that impoundment period, my taxes -- again, 22 that full dollar of taxes -- I would only be 23 receiving something like 59 cents per dollar 24 back on it. 25 Q In the materials that you read about the 44 1 impoundment fund, did it describe the dedicated 2 uses, the permissible uses of dollars in the 3 impoundment fund? 4 A For the period that the fund was engaged, yes. 5 Q What was your understanding of those limitations 6 or restrictions on use? 7 A They would be spent in the area. 8 Q The annexation from which the taxes came; 9 correct? 10 A Correct. That I would pay increased. Today I 11 have full freedom in how I spend my money. In 12 this case, my money would be collected and spent 13 on my behalf by a group of people who were not 14 elected by me or by my fellow residents, and 15 would be controlled by the city. 16 I would prefer to have a the freedom to 17 spend that money for my own interests on my own. 18 Q But we're talking about property tax dollars 19 that you're going to pay whether you're in the 20 county or the city, right, you're going to pay 21 some amount of property taxes to some taxing 22 authority. 23 Are you saying you have a direct say in how 24 your property taxes are spent by the county? 25 A I can vote for people in the county, yes. 45 1 Q If you were within the city limits, you could 2 vote in city elections too; right? 3 A It seems every time that they would annex me 4 shortly after holding their elections. That's 5 been a pattern twice now. 6 The impoundment period, I don't remember 7 what it was, perhaps three years, and city 8 elections happen, like, for mayor, once every 9 five years. So most likely, this impoundment 10 period would be over before I even was able to 11 vote for someone indirectly to control this 12 impoundment fund. 13 Q Do you have any information on population 14 density on a persons per square acre in Area 1A 15 or 1B? 16 A I believe I've seen those numbers. I don't 17 remember those numbers. 18 Q Have you done any study or calculation of the 19 population density in 1A or 1B, yourself 20 personally? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you have any information on the percentage of 23 zoning classifications in Area 1A or 1B between 24 residential, commercial, industrial? 25 A The percentage, no. 46 1 Q Do you have any information on the percentages 2 by which Areas 1A or 1B are subdivided? 3 A Subdivided between what or among what? 4 Q Subdivide into smaller parcels. 5 A Can you say the question again? 6 Q Yes. Do you know what the percentage of 7 subdivided parcels is in Area 1A or 1B, or have 8 you done anything to evaluate that? 9 A I have seen numbers. I don't remember what 10 those numbers were. 11 Q The numbers that you've seen, did you prepare 12 those or they were prepared by someone other 13 than yourself? 14 A I would have -- if I saw them, they would have 15 been probably reported by Indiana Public Media. 16 I can't remember. 17 Q In Exhibit 28, the interrogatory answers, 18 Interrogatory Number 3 on page 2 says "Identify 19 each fact witness you plan to call to testify in 20 the lawsuit and provide a summary of their 21 anticipated testimony." 22 If you look ahead to page 4, the answer 23 about center -- almost dead center of the 24 page -- you see your name listed? 25 A I see my name. 47 1 Q Says "If called, Mr. McGhie would be asked to 2 testify as landowner about his opposition to 3 annexation, city services versus otherwise 4 provided services, and the impact of annexation 5 upon him." 6 Thinking back over the testimony that 7 you've provided during the course of this 8 deposition, have we covered everything that you 9 would said in response to those categories? 10 A I believe one of your first questions was what 11 were the reasons. 12 Q Right. 13 A I gave you several reasons. 14 Q Do you believe you have given me all the reasons 15 as far as you're able to recall? 16 A The ones I can remember, we've spoken of. 17 Q Is there any other reason why you're opposed to 18 annexation that you don't believe you've told me 19 about? 20 A None I can remember. 21 Q If you go to page 11 of Exhibit 28, Question 12. 22 "Identify and list all facts and documents 23 supporting your contention in the petition that 24 the annexation will have significant financial 25 impact upon residents or owners of land in the 48 1 annexation territory." Do you see that? 2 A I see that. 3 Q Turn to page 12. In the answer, do you see your 4 name on the second to last line of that first 5 paragraph? 6 A I see my name. 7 Q Other than the property tax issue that we've 8 talked about, are there other financial impacts 9 that you foresee to you if the annexation goes 10 forward? 11 A Other than property taxes, we've talked about 12 funding for services provided by the county. 13 Q Right. Which is paid for through property 14 taxes. 15 A Through property taxes. 16 Q Right. Any other financial impacts outside of 17 property tax increases or additional costs to 18 some services? 19 A There may be food and beverage taxes that are 20 affected. Other things besides property taxes. 21 Q Have you done an analysis of the impact of the 22 annexation on you from food and beverage taxes? 23 A I have not. 24 Q Any other financial impacts from the annexation 25 on you or your household? 49 1 A I would have to buy garbage services, which as 2 it is right now, I can use the Monroe County 3 Solid Waste Management District or the Waste 4 Reduction District, I believe they are now 5 called. 6 Q You mentioned that earlier. Anything you have 7 not mentioned that you can think of in terms of 8 be financial impact? 9 A None I can think of. 10 Q Look on page 12, Question 13. It says "Identify 11 and list all facts and documents supporting your 12 contention in petition that the annexation is 13 not in the best interest of the owners of land 14 in the annexation territory." 15 Do you see that? 16 A Say it again. 17 Q Page 12. 18 A I was on the wrong page. 19 Q Sorry. Page 12; Question 13. You might have 20 been on -- 21 A Yes, I was on page 13, looking for Question 12. 22 Q So just read 13 to yourself, let me know when 23 you've finished reading it. 24 A I have read the question. 25 Q Now if you turn the page to page 13 and look at 50 1 the answer, do you see your name listed as 2 potential witness to testify about the impact of 3 the annexation in response to question that the 4 annexation is not in the best interest of the 5 landowners? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q I don't want to retread what you already said, 8 but I take it that you believe the annexation is 9 not in the best interest of the landowners 10 including yourself. 11 Is there anything about that belief or that 12 position that we haven't talked about in this 13 deposition? 14 A No. 15 MR. MCNEIL: Mr. McGhie, those are all the 16 questions I have for you at this time. Thank 17 you for your time. 18 MR. BEGGS: No questions. Thank you very 19 much. We'd like signature. 20 (Time noted: 3:40 p.m.) 21 AND FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 22 23 24 ____________________ 25 THOMAS MCGHIE 51 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF MONROE ) 3 I, Colleen Brady, a Notary Public in and for 4 the County of Monroe, State of Indiana at large, do 5 hereby certify that THOMAS MCGHIE, the deponent 6 herein, was by me first duly sworn to tell the 7 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth 8 in the aforementioned matter; 9 That the foregoing deposition was taken on 10 behalf of the Respondents, at the offices of 11 Bloomington City Hall, 401 North Morton Street, 12 Room 225, Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on 13 the 27th day of February 2024, commencing at the 14 hour of 2:38 p.m., pursuant to the Indiana Rules of 15 Trial Procedure; 16 That said deposition was taken down 17 stenographically and transcribed under my 18 direction, and that the typewritten transcript is a 19 true record of the testimony given by the said 20 deponent; and thereafter presented to said deponent 21 for his signature; 22 That the parties were represented by their 23 counsel as aforementioned. 24 I do further certify that I am a disinterested 25 person in this cause of action; that I am not a 52 1 relative or attorney of any party, or otherwise 2 interested in the event of this action, and am not 3 in the employ of the attorneys for any party. 4 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 5 hand and affixed my notarial seal on this 15th 6 day of March 2024. 7 8 9 <%25563,Signature%> Colleen Brady 10 11 12 Seal, Notary Public My Commission Expires: State of Indiana March 8, 2029 13 Colleen Brady County of Residence: 14 Commission No. NP0732235 Monroe 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Veritext Legal Solutions 1100 Superior Ave Suite 1820 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 Phone: 216-523-1313 March 15, 2024 To: Mr. Beggs Case Name: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council of the City Of Bloomington Et Al Veritext Reference Number: 6465804 Witness: Thomas McGhie Deposition Date: 2/27/2024 Dear Sir/Madam: The deposition transcript taken in the above-referenced matter, with the reading and signing having not been expressly waived, has been completed and is available for review and signature. Please call our office to make arrangements for a convenient location to accomplish this or if you prefer a certified transcript can be purchased. If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived. Sincerely, Production Department NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465804 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council of the City Of Bloomington Et Al DATE OF DEPOSITION: 2/27/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Thomas McGhie 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have made no changes to the testimony as transcribed by the court reporter. 8 _______________ ________________________ 9 Date Thomas McGhie 10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a Notary Public in and for the State and County, 11 the referenced witness did personally appear and acknowledge that: 12 They have read the transcript; 13 They signed the foregoing Sworn Statement; and 14 Their execution of this Statement is of their free act and deed. 15 I have affixed my name and official seal 16 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 17 ___________________________________ 18 Notary Public 19 ___________________________________ Commission Expiration Date 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 DEPOSITION REVIEW CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS 2 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 6465804 3 CASE NAME: County Residents Against Annexation Et Al v. The Common Council of the City Of Bloomington Et Al DATE OF DEPOSITION: 2/27/2024 4 WITNESS' NAME: Thomas McGhie 5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of 6 my testimony or it has been read to me. 7 I have listed my changes on the attached Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as 8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s). 9 I request that these changes be entered as part of the record of my testimony. 10 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well 11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize that both be appended to the transcript of my 12 testimony and be incorporated therein. 13 _______________ ________________________ Date Thomas McGhie 14 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a 15 Notary Public in and for the State and County, the referenced witness did personally appear 16 and acknowledge that: 17 They have read the transcript; They have listed all of their corrections 18 in the appended Errata Sheet; They signed the foregoing Sworn 19 Statement; and Their execution of this Statement is of 20 their free act and deed. 21 I have affixed my name and official seal 22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____. 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date 1 ERRATA SHEET VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS MIDWEST 2 ASSIGNMENT NO: 2/27/2024 3 PAGE/LINE(S) / CHANGE /REASON 4 ___________________________________________________ 5 ___________________________________________________ 6 ___________________________________________________ 7 ___________________________________________________ 8 ___________________________________________________ 9 ___________________________________________________ 10 ___________________________________________________ 11 ___________________________________________________ 12 ___________________________________________________ 13 ___________________________________________________ 14 ___________________________________________________ 15 ___________________________________________________ 16 ___________________________________________________ 17 ___________________________________________________ 18 ___________________________________________________ 19 _______________ ________________________ 20 Date Thomas McGhie 21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS ________ 22 DAY OF ________________________, 20______ . 23 ___________________________________ Notary Public 24 ___________________________________ 25 Commission Expiration Date